- (female announcer)
  Production funding for

Behind the Headlines
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and by viewers
  like you, thank you.

- Memphis Mayor Jim
Strickland tonight,

on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music]

I'm Eric Barnes with
The Daily Memphian,

and thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by
Mayor Jim Strickland.

Thanks for being here again.
- Thank you for having me.

- Along with Bil Dries,

reporter with
The Daily Memphian.

We'll talk a lot
tonight about crime.

Crime obviously, is
huge on people's mind.

It's a national increase.

It's a very disturbing
local increase.

We may touch a bit on
the Young Dolph shooting,

the rapper who was
shot Wednesday.

I should note that we're taping
this on Thursday morning,

so there could be other
things that develop in that,

because obviously it's
a fast-moving story.

Let me start big picture,
and we had Amy Weirich,

Shelby County
District Attorney on,

I think last week, talking
about some of these issues.

There's a three year
increase in violent crime.

It's up 30% since 2018.
Murders are up 80% since 2018.

Aggravated assaults up 50%.

There are some categories
of crime that are down,

which I think sometimes
surprises people,

but you ran on, you're
now in your second term,

what, you're six
years in give or take,

ran on fighting crime and
addressing the crime problem.

Going back, let's go back
with a hypothetical here

to the beginning of your term,

if you'd known a
couple of key things,

if you'd known that hiring,

that increasing the
size of the police force

would be so difficult.

It's really basically
been static,

and it's been static
nationally, right?

It's been a huge national
problem hiring police force,

losing police members.

If you'd known the legislature
was gonna increase access

to guns so dramatically,
and those are legal ways,

but every law enforcement
person who has come on the show

over the last five
years has said,

Those legal guns are ending
up in the hands of criminals

through theft, and so on

and has created a huge
amount of gun crime.

And if you'd known
the impossible,

which that this kind
of societal pandemic

and the upheaval of the
last two years would happen,

looking back at the
crime strategies

you all have implemented,
what would you do differently?

- Well, first let me
reframe it a little bit.

Not only crime was
reduced in 2017 to 2018,

2018 to 2019, and we were
hiring more police officers

and crime was going down,
then the pandemic hit.

You kind of framed it around
2018. I'm moving up to 2019.

Pre-pandemic, we were heading
in the right direction,

and I think everything that
we've done has been correct.

If I did anything differently,

I wish we had started
violence interruption earlier.

- What is violence
interruption when you say that?

- That is a program that
other cities have used

where it's high
touch intervention

with the young people
who are in gangs

or thinking about
getting in gangs

or in some kind of groups,

now that's the new
theory, groups.

They aren't official gangs
and intervene with them,

high touch, meaning often,
several times a week.

- With police, with social--

- Well, it's people
trained, non-police,

trained to do that
kind of intervention

to pull them outside
the life of crime.

- Private sector or are those
city or county employees?

- They are a nonprofit.
Those are nonprofits.

- So working with
nonprofit centers.

- Yeah, we've had it for awhile,

but they only had 13 employees.

We use some of the
federal money that we got

and to bump that
up, and July 1,

we started and gave
them more money.

They've hired up to 25 now,

and they're going up to
50 here before Christmas,

and I would have liked to
have started that earlier.

Pre-pandemic, Oakland,
California, reduced gun violence

by 50% through this program,
or one of the things.

- Through that program, okay.

But again, looking
forward, COVID time warp.

You've got a year and a half
left and you're termed out?

- Two years and one month.

- Two years and one month
left, sorry about that.

I'm not trying to
get you out sooner.

[Jim laughing]

I just don't have
good time anymore.

It seems unlikely
though that the,

I mean, the level
of police force

is kind of chugging
along at around 2000.

Again, I mean, that's
a national phenomenon

and what happens
next with getting

the crime rate back down?

I mean, is it just getting back

to the things you
were doing before,

or is there a new world
with post-pandemic

and the rise in juvenile crime?

I assume you feel it.
I hear it all the time.

I mean, it is a catastrophe.

- I do live in the
city, so I do feel it,

and I've been concerned
about this and working on it

for almost six years, and even
before that on City Council,

so this is not new to me.

Let me talk about police and
then the big challenge we have.

Police, we had gotten down to
almost 1900 police officers

early in my term.

We had increased
that in 2019 to 2,100,

a net increase of
almost 200 officers

going into the pandemic.

Since the pandemic,
we've had a net decrease

of about a hundred, or maybe
even more than a hundred.

The pandemic has really
devastated our recruiting

and retention efforts.

We've had more retire
and more resign

over the last year
and a half. I don't--

- Was it the George
Floyd protests?

- Yes.
- People say that.

I don't know if you see that.

- I think that's obviously
negatively affected,

people don't want to
be police officers now.

So, we're down under
2,000 officers now,

and we've wanted
to get to 2,500.

S,o pre-pandemic, we were at
2,100, in the right direction,

pandemic, other
things have happened.

The big challenge though that
we have is state law is weak.

State law allows easy and
widespread access to guns,

while it does not punish the
wrongful use of those guns.

- But is there any reason
to believe that will change?

- The second part, maybe.

I mean, no, we're not
gonna be able to pull back

the lack of gun regulations,
but for instance,

when they allowed guns in cars,
theft from guns skyrocketed.

This year alone, we've
had about 1500 guns

stolen out of vehicles.

People are not stealing
guns to go hunting.

They're stealing guns to
then commit more crimes.

People must lock up their guns.

Let's go to the second
issue, state law.

This is some examples
of state law.

I shoot a gun at you,
then don't hit you,

no mandatory jail time on me
'cause of weak state laws.

Somebody charged with first
degree murder got out on bond

that should never be
allowed to get out on bond.

Somebody convicted
for eight years.

They get out in two years.

The third year, they
commit a murder,

and I'm gonna write about that
in this week a weekly update.

State law is weak and
young people are laughing

at the situation.

201 Poplar's a revolving door.

Juvenile court is even
more of a revolving door,

and juvenile court
needs more money

to do more intervention
with these young people

instead of just
revolving door.

- Let me get Bill in here.

- Mayor, let's talk about
some immediate stuff

as we record this the
day after the shooting

and killing of Young Dolph.

Some folks have called
for a curfew of some kind.

Should there be a curfew?

- Well at this point, no,

but you know, you
always keep that option.

It was a horribly tragic event,

what happened to Young Dolph,
but it was a targeted killing.

And with targeted killings,

what we try to do is to
avoid the retaliation,

and that's a limited
number of people.

That's not a city-wide
emergency situation

where you'd have to do a curfew.

So what we do is the
police, the gang unit,

the interveners that I
talked about earlier,

try to intervene to try
to stop a retaliation.

There's a limited
number of people,

limited number of places.

We did have an increased
police presence

in those targeted areas

that we thought were
needed last night,

and that will continue.

Now, we always have the option,

but we just didn't think,
and overnight really,

nothing happened
associated with that case.

- And let me also
clarify again to people

that we are recording
this Thursday morning.

The shooting was Wednesday,
just so you don't,

'cause again, this
will air on Friday.

Go ahead, Bill.

- Did your counselors
with the group violence

intervention effort that
we've been talking about,

did they have an
opportunity to go out

after the shooting
and do some work?

- Yes, I talked to the
lead, and they were onsite,

and then they were elsewhere,

trying to tamp down
any retaliation,

but so were our police officers.

- There were two other attempts
on this young man's life

in different cities.

Are the areas that
you're looking at

to watch and try to
avoid any retaliation,

are these people who are
suspects in this shooting

or do you know at this point?

- I don't know, I don't
know all the places

where we have increased
police presence,

but there's two groups,
as I understand it,

who have a beef with each other,

and there are many members
associated with those groups,

and all are being
talked to as much

as they'll allow
to be talked to,

and there are certain areas
that could be hotspots

that have increased
police presence.

- Let's talk about
hotspots, I guess

and another element of crime
that I hear about constantly

from people and see it some,

which is the state of the
highways and the streets

in terms of drag racing,
reckless driving.

And one of the things
I accidentally joked

with DA Weirich last week,
but I meant it actually,

which was that I
was driving out here

to the studio out
east on the highway,

and I thought to myself,

well, if I drive 75,
I might get a ticket.

If I go up to a hundred,
I'm not gonna get a ticket,

because right now the police
force has said, by and large,

they're not gonna chase
down people doing a hundred.

And as I was driving
out last week,

multiple people passed me going

clearly 90 to 100 miles an hour,

just based on what I could see.

There's a moral hazard in there,

that people know they're
not gonna get pulled over,

and so it seems to
be a vicious cycle

of more people speeding, more
people doing dangerous things.

The word is out that they're
not gonna get chased.

How does that, and that's even
separate above the shootings

that are going on,
on the highway.

So how do we get control
of the highways again?

- Well, we have
good news recently,

just in the last
couple of weeks.

I think Bill actually was the
first one to write the story.

We've been asking for years
that the state take ownership

of the state property,
which are the interstates.

Those aren't city streets,
but through tradition,

the city has been leaned
on to patrol them,

respond to accidents
and all that.

We had no permanent presence
of highway patrol officers.

- And haven't for decades.
- For decades.

So we're getting that now.

There's 12, not long ago,

it was about 6 highway
patrol officers, it's up to 12.

It's gonna be 16 this
summer and more beyond that,

and what you'll see is the
highway patrol officers there

instead of us, and
then we can have more

patrolling the streets.

- I've heard Chief
Davis, now 103 months,

the new Police Chief,
speak about the need

for more technology
and IDing cameras,

cameras on the highways,

and I guess maybe
potentially on the streets

that ID the license plates,

and you try to track
the people down later,

versus chasing them
down the highway.

- Well yeah, let's talk
about why we don't chase.

- Yeah, yeah, please.

- Because I do get some
questions about that.

We don't do high speed chases

and other police
departments too,

like Bartlett, I know for
sure it doesn't do it,

unless it's a dangerous felon,
and that's a different story.

But if it's just
someone speeding,

you chase them,
there some chance

that they're gonna lose control

and hurt somebody and kill
somebody, and it's happened--

- And the police officer
could lose control

and hurt somebody and
that's been a problem--

- But the more likely thing
is the untrained driver,

often young people,
will lose control

and hit somebody and kill them,

and that's where
it's not worth it.

But, until last spring,
cameras on the interstate

to do the license plate
reads was illegal.

We got a law changed
to allow that,

because it's state
owned property.

Now that's allowed.
We're pricing it out.

- Okay, and those
will be city run

or in partnership
with the state?

- We haven't decided yet.

- Okay, switch to
the city streets,

[stammering] what do you do?

It's the same rules for
people speeding down Poplar

or speeding down Union or
speeding down the Airways, so--

- Obviously, it's cost--

- Of the cameras to ID them.

- Yes, and we have thousands
of cameras out right now.

- The SkyCop cameras?
- The SkyCop cameras.

- But they don't
ID license plates,

I mean there just kinda low
res surveillance cameras.

- All police vehicles have
license plate readers,

and what you're talking about

is putting license
plate readers elsewhere,

like a permanent,
it's just a cost,

so we'll see how much it costs.

- Is there anything else
before I go back to Bill,

like in city streets,
that can be done

to regain control
of the streets?

- Oh, we've probably put a
thousand or more speed humps

down Riverside
Drive, other places,

not just downtown, other places
to try to slow people down.

- Are they working?
- Yeah.

I mean, in the places
where they have it.

- Yeah, okay, Bill.

- Several City Council members
have talked about going back

to the residency issue on
police and where they live.

Is there gonna be
a push for that,

before the Council I should say?

- We'll see, I hope so.

It may be a first start

with a private behind the
scenes push before it's public,

but it ought to be.

I mean, remember, like I said,

2018, 2019, we
were low on crime.

2020, we said, "Let's
widen the residency rule."

They said, "No,"
and then we've seen

what's happening to crime.

Now, I'm not saying it's
a direct correlation,

but I think I said
to you or someone,

"The Council's vote not
to allow the public to vote

on widening residency
has not aged well."

I mean, we see what
happened to crime.

We see what's happened
to our police ranks,

which has shrunk since then.

We need help. We need
to be able to hire.

Most every major
city in the country

is allowed to hire officers
outside the county,

and we need the help.

We should be able to do it.

- If the Council
reverses course on it,

and the votes were
there on the Council

to not only rescind
the referendum,

but also to override
your veto of this,

it's gonna take some time.

Is it enough to say, "Let's
increase the number of police,"

given how long
it's going to take?

Do you need a plan B to that?

- Oh, we're already
executing on that.

That's why we have a
$15,000 signing bonus

for all new police officers,
$10,000 moving expense

if somebody comes in
from in out of town,

fifteen thousand dollar
home purchase assistance,

if they buy a house in Memphis.

That's more money than
any city in the world.

We're aggressively going out
there to different cities.

We did a 9% bonus for police
officers and firefighters.

We're now, I think
we're in the first year,

and then two more years of 9%.

We've raised their salary.

We will continue
to do all we can

to make it a good place to
work to recruit those officers.

- But we're holding steady.

I mean, this seems to be a
larger problem than it seemed.

- Oh, there's no doubt.

It's kind of what Eric
and I were talking about.

Fewer people are applying
to be police officers.

Almost every police
department across the country

is struggling to
hire and to retain.

So many current
officers are deciding

they want a different
way to make a living.

And then the general,
it's hard for the FedExs

and the AutoZones to hire.

Everyone is having a
hard time hiring people.

City government, non police
and fire, we're having--

- Online local newspapers
are struggling to hire,

I mean, really.

- Yeah, and I never
worried about firefighters

and recruiting and
retaining firefighters.

In the last six months,
seeing the numbers,

it's the first time I've really
started to worry about that.

- The interesting thing to me

about the discussion
the Council had

is that you have Council
members who believed

that police officers
should live in the city

that they work in or live in
the county where they work in.

But they've also said,

"Yes, I think we need
more police officers."

I mean, you had a
majority on the Council

who agreed with the goal
of going up to 2,500.

So, is this not necessarily
about the number of police,

but is it about
a larger issue of

police officers should
live where they work?

- Well, that's what they say,

but that's an example of
the challenge that we face

with crime overall.

Because when a crime happens,
the camera always comes to me,

"Strickland, what are you
gonna do about crime?"

And I'm not saying it shouldn't.

I've totally welcomed that.

But y'all never go
to the Council

immediately after a crime,

and say, "Do you regret
limiting our police force?"

And that's what it was, it
was limiting our police force.

No one ever goes to state
lawmakers and state government,

"Do you regret these
weak state laws?"

And y'all never go to
county government and say,

"Y'all are a hundred
percent responsible

for juvenile justice,
a hundred percent,"

and I'm not saying y'all,
I don't mean Daily Memphian.

I mean general in media.

I'm not trying to point you out.
- That is fair.

- But no one goes to
the county government,

which is a hundred
percent responsible

for juvenile justice,
a hundred percent.

Juvenile crime has skyrocketed

over the last six, seven years.

It actually dovetails to when
the consent decree was placed,

and I'm not disagreeing
with the thought

of the consent decree,
but if you're not gonna take

more into custody, and
you're gonna push people

away from court, juvenile
court needs more money

to intervene with
these young people

who are doing bad things and
no longer coming into court,

but no one asked them, no one.

It's always, "Strickland,

what are you gonna do
about juvenile court?"

And please continue to
push us, me personally.

I take responsibility for it,

but I don't have a
hundred percent authority

on all these different areas.

And that's why it's easy
for a council member to say,

take those positions.

We need more police officers,

but let's not go
outside the county,

because nobody pushes them.

- Yeah, I mean,
we got defensive,

and it is an interesting
conversation.

Over time, on
Behind the Headlines,

and we've had Floyd Bonner
on recently, the Sheriff.

We've had the juvenile court,

Judge Michaels, on in the past.

We haven't been able
to get him on again,

Amy Weirich last week, the DA.

We've talked to Council members

and county commissioners
about this,

and next week we're talking
to two local state legislators

and among many things,
including the gun laws.

And, it is complicated
and to some degree,

you begin to get the scale
of the diaspora of entities

that have their fingers
in this without, I mean,

if you listen to all
those conversations,

you realize all the
complexities of this.

- First of all, I
need a dictionary

to look up that
word you just said.

- Diaspora, yeah.
- Yeah.

- I'm not sure if I
even used it right,

but it sounded really important.

- But Judge Michael,
I'm glad y'all talk to him,

but he needs more resources.

It's the County Commission

that needs to give
him more funding.

If you're pushing kids
out of the system,

where are you pushing them to?

- So let's talk more--

- They're getting
no interaction.

- We've talked a ton,

We've mentioned a little
bit about intervention,

about efforts other than
policing and locking up,

so let's talk a little
bit more about that.

I mean, what in the short term,

I think everyone vaguely,
generally agrees,

good families, good education,
interventions at young,

those are lifetime choices
and long-term choices

and interventions that hopefully
keep kids on a better path.

I mean, people are like, "What
are we gonna do next week?"

And what are the non-policing,
non-lock them up strategies

that the city, that your
part of this diaspora

can tackle that work.

- The thing I'm so
most excited about

is Boys and Girls Club.

When I took office in 2016,
and even the campaign,

I talked about, kids need
something productive to do

when they're not in school,
I said it all the time.

We did more in our community
centers, more in our libraries,

more in our summer jobs program,
more in our parks, we did.

Boys and Girls Club
was the next step.

I could never come
up with extra money,

'cause it cost millions, using
the federal stimulus money.

What we're doing at
Craigmont High School

was the only school
that Boys and Girls Club

was in afterschool programming,

and the kids don't
have to go to a club,

don't have to go to a community
center, just stay at school.

They close at 8:00,

and they've done it
for about four years.

Y'all should have the
Principal of Craigmont on.

She will tell you that a
hundred percent of the kids

in the Boys and
Girls Club program,

a hundred percent
graduate high school,

and a hundred percent of
those go on to college,

get a job or join the military.

We have 30 public high
schools in Memphis.

A program, a partnership with
Joris Ray and City Council,

we're gonna expand that
with 10 new schools,

and that's what we need.

We need every middle school
and every high school

to have afterschool
program, intense.

It doesn't have to
be Boys and Girls.

- Okay, I was gonna
ask, are there other--

- Intense afterschool
programming 'till 8:00

at night or so in the school,
the kids don't have to leave

and wouldn't it be great if
a hundred percent of kids

graduated high school and
then went on to a successful?

Then all these other
problems disappear.

- Is it a realistic goal?
A hundred percent is a lot.

- Yeah, and I can't guarantee
you it's gonna continue that,

but it's a lot better
than what's going on now.

- Just two minutes left, Bill.

- Well, let me ask you a
technical question about ARPA,

the American Rescue
Plan Act funding,

that there is kind of a
conversion of those funds,

because the resolutions that
the Council passed on this

say that the money goes
to replace lost revenues

from the city, and then
we see the ARPA budget

that has the programs, so
there's a bit of a conversion

in that federal money from
what it's intended for

and what it's used for.

I think I phrased that wrong-

- I don't think I
understand your question.

it's allowed to replace
lost revenue for cities,

and it's allowed to make these
big life-changing programs,

like Boys and Girls Club,
so we've used it for both.

City government was not
exempt from lost revenue,

like businesses were.

We lost revenue,
and this allowed us

to be whole basically.

We didn't have to lay off.
We didn't have to cut.

And the federal
money helped a lot,

but we're also able to do
the Boys and Girls Club,

the broadband internet,
which is really important,

and these other big programs.

- Because the lost revenue
was going to go to programs

and personnel for
those programs.

- For personnel for sure.

But to me, the lost
revenue helped us

just to maintain the status
quo, and then this other money,

let us do something more
than that status quo.

- Just a minute left.

You ran the first time I think,

it was, "Brilliant
at the basics,"

and being brilliant
at the basics,

and I think if it was
not the formal tagline,

we had "Memphis has momentum."

Do you feel like you're
brilliant at the basics

when it comes to things
like roads, solid waste?

We talked about litter
when you were reelected

that that was a priority.

Did you feel that you are
being brilliant at the basics?

- With as much money
as we have, yes.

If we were to pick up all
the litter that's out there,

that you and I and other
people throw outside,

and I don't mean you
and I literally--

- God, you're just blaming me

for everything today,
it's unbelievable!

- But, we human beings are
the ones who put it out there.

The city government
is not littering.

It's human beings
put it out there.

But if we were to come
behind all the human beings

and pick up their litter and
cut private property grass,

once a month, it
would cost 15 more,

we'd have to raise taxes.

- Fifteen million?
- Fifteen million dollars.

And I put it out in one
of my weekly emails.

So, we've gotten better
on picking up garbage,

paving streets,
it's lack of workforce.

- Okay, we're gonna get you
back sooner, thank you so much.

lost a light bulb. We
were so excited today.

Thank you for joining us.

You can get
everything at WKNO.org

or on YouTube, or download
the podcast of the show

wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks, and we'll
see you next week.

[intense orchestral music]

[acoustic guitar chords]