WEBVTT 00:01.335 --> 00:02.870 - [Announcer] Production funding for Behind The Headlines 00:02.870 --> 00:05.005 is made possible in part by 00:05.005 --> 00:09.309 the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, 00:09.309 --> 00:11.345 and by viewers like you. 00:11.345 --> 00:12.179 Thank you. 00:13.380 --> 00:14.882 - The City Hall's surveillance list, 00:14.882 --> 00:17.351 news from the legislature, and much more 00:17.351 --> 00:19.419 tonight on Behind The Headlines. 00:19.419 --> 00:21.822 (bold music) 00:36.436 --> 00:38.472 I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of the Memphis Daily News, 00:38.472 --> 00:39.740 thanks for joining us. 00:39.740 --> 00:41.508 I'm joined tonight by Bernal Smith, 00:41.508 --> 00:43.143 new Tri-State Defender, thanks for being here again. 00:43.143 --> 00:44.411 - Glad to be back. 00:44.411 --> 00:45.679 - And Bill Dries, senior reporter 00:45.679 --> 00:47.447 with the Memphis Daily News. 00:47.447 --> 00:49.082 Once again, we're doing a round table, 00:49.082 --> 00:50.884 there's been a whole lot going on here in Memphis 00:50.884 --> 00:53.687 and here up in Nashville, I spent three days or so 00:53.687 --> 00:55.188 up at the legislature, but we'll start 00:55.188 --> 00:58.025 with what people are calling, Bill, a surveillance list, 00:58.025 --> 01:00.961 a black list, what is this list 01:00.961 --> 01:04.898 of some 80 people who are being monitored 01:04.898 --> 01:07.000 when they go in City Hall, there's a lot of confusion, 01:07.000 --> 01:09.036 there's a lawsuit now, walk us through what's going on. 01:09.036 --> 01:13.206 - Alright, there is a list at City Hall of 81 people 01:15.409 --> 01:20.013 who, if they come to City Hall for any reason, 01:20.013 --> 01:21.481 the police look at that list, 01:21.481 --> 01:23.650 the police who are at the entrance to City Hall, 01:23.650 --> 01:25.686 and if your name is on that list, 01:25.686 --> 01:28.121 then you cannot go anywhere in City Hall 01:28.121 --> 01:32.693 without a uniformed police officer escorting you. 01:32.693 --> 01:37.130 The commercial appeal filed an open records request 01:37.130 --> 01:39.967 to get the list after several of us 01:39.967 --> 01:42.903 had heard from some folks who have been involved 01:42.903 --> 01:46.306 in the demonstrations we've had over the last year, 01:46.306 --> 01:48.842 that this was happening. 01:48.842 --> 01:51.511 And all those people who were talking to us 01:51.511 --> 01:53.714 were on the list. 01:53.714 --> 01:55.015 Some of the people on the list 01:55.015 --> 01:56.950 appeared to have been on there 01:56.950 --> 02:00.988 for legitimate security reasons for quite some time, 02:03.757 --> 02:06.827 but most of the people on that list 02:06.827 --> 02:10.097 seem to have been involved in the demonstrations 02:10.097 --> 02:12.966 that we've had in the last year or so 02:12.966 --> 02:16.169 around various causes, from Black Lives Matter 02:16.169 --> 02:17.704 to the Greensward. 02:17.704 --> 02:19.072 - [Bernal] The Fight for 15. 02:19.072 --> 02:21.942 - Right, even to the people who were involved 02:21.942 --> 02:24.511 in the Valero pipeline protest, 02:25.846 --> 02:28.682 14 people who were involved in that protest, 02:28.682 --> 02:31.385 the day after the protest, the Memphis police 02:31.385 --> 02:33.887 added their name to the City Hall list. 02:33.887 --> 02:35.422 - And Bernal, you said the Fight for 15, 02:35.422 --> 02:37.824 which was the $15 minimum wage, 02:37.824 --> 02:39.292 people who were protesting and 02:39.292 --> 02:40.694 trying to raise some issues about that, 02:40.694 --> 02:41.928 some of them ended up. 02:41.928 --> 02:43.864 - Yeah, some of them ended up on the list. 02:43.864 --> 02:47.401 Folks that ended up that were in front of Graceland. 02:47.401 --> 02:50.737 Folks that showed up at the mayor's house 02:50.737 --> 02:53.306 at the beginning of the year. 02:53.306 --> 02:56.343 I mean, the interesting thing that they'd discovered 02:56.343 --> 02:59.112 that the city of Memphis purchased 02:59.112 --> 03:02.549 a piece of software for about $10,000 03:02.549 --> 03:05.285 that is literally sort of tracked 03:05.285 --> 03:09.656 many of these individual's social media postings. 03:09.656 --> 03:13.660 That is in violation of a, I think a 1978 order, 03:15.095 --> 03:18.932 which basically prohibited sort of tracking people 03:20.333 --> 03:24.438 for political reasons, and then retaliating against them. 03:24.438 --> 03:28.008 And so the suit, I think, is relative to 03:28.008 --> 03:30.510 sort of that tracking and retaliation. 03:30.510 --> 03:33.013 - And the suit is filed in federal court. 03:33.013 --> 03:34.281 - [Bill] Right. 03:34.281 --> 03:35.215 - And it goes back that there's this violation. 03:35.215 --> 03:38.018 You covered the 1978 as a child, 03:38.018 --> 03:39.753 (laughing) 03:39.753 --> 03:43.223 You covered the 1978, tell us the back story of that, 03:43.223 --> 03:44.825 because clearly, there was no social media back then, 03:44.825 --> 03:46.560 there was tracking of a different kind, 03:46.560 --> 03:48.295 and why that consent order is, what, 03:48.295 --> 03:50.397 40 years later still in place. 03:50.397 --> 03:52.432 - Right, this is all moving pretty fast. 03:52.432 --> 03:55.268 The lawsuit for the immediate list 03:56.703 --> 04:00.474 was filed on Wednesday in Memphis federal court. 04:01.675 --> 04:04.644 Alright, it alleges that with this list 04:04.644 --> 04:06.480 and the surveillance that it's alleged 04:06.480 --> 04:10.050 the police department has done on these protesters, 04:10.050 --> 04:13.987 that it violates a 1978 consent decree 04:13.987 --> 04:15.722 in Memphis federal court. 04:15.722 --> 04:19.059 The consent decree was over a unit of the police department 04:19.059 --> 04:22.395 known as the Domestic Intelligence Unit, 04:22.395 --> 04:26.566 that had existed at least during the protests of the 1960s. 04:28.034 --> 04:32.472 In the mid 1970s, a former university of Memphis student 04:32.472 --> 04:34.641 named Eric Carter, who had been involved 04:34.641 --> 04:36.943 in some Vietnam War protests here, 04:36.943 --> 04:40.580 went to the police department, as a lot of people did 04:40.580 --> 04:43.216 during the Watergate era, and the revelations 04:43.216 --> 04:46.186 that the FBI had been spying on a lot of people, 04:46.186 --> 04:48.054 Carter went to the police department and said 04:48.054 --> 04:51.525 if you have a file on me, I want to see it. 04:51.525 --> 04:56.029 The police department said you're not going to get the file. 04:56.029 --> 04:58.899 That precipitated the lawsuit in federal court, 04:58.899 --> 05:01.568 and the consent decree that the police department 05:01.568 --> 05:03.870 agreed to, which said in effect that 05:03.870 --> 05:06.640 it would not video tape, surveil, 05:07.841 --> 05:11.378 or in any other way track the movements 05:11.378 --> 05:15.549 of anyone in Memphis engaged in political activism, 05:18.318 --> 05:20.020 in anything like that. 05:20.020 --> 05:21.821 The police department signed off on that, 05:21.821 --> 05:24.157 the allegation in the lawsuit. 05:24.157 --> 05:25.926 The attorney on the lawsuit, by the way, 05:25.926 --> 05:29.062 is Bruce Kramer, who was one of the attorneys 05:29.062 --> 05:33.066 who sued the city in 1978 and actually signed 05:33.066 --> 05:34.501 the consent decree. 05:34.501 --> 05:35.669 - [Eric] Right. 05:35.669 --> 05:37.070 - And the allegation in the lawsuit 05:37.070 --> 05:39.539 is that the city has violated that consent decree 05:39.539 --> 05:40.941 which is still in effect. 05:40.941 --> 05:44.177 - And part of what's, forgetting the legalities of this, 05:44.177 --> 05:45.779 there's also the confusion. 05:45.779 --> 05:48.148 You've got Strickland saying, and I'm paraphrasing here 05:48.148 --> 05:50.684 and I didn't bring my notes on this part of it, 05:50.684 --> 05:53.687 that he signed part of the list, 05:53.687 --> 05:56.857 signed part of it after there was the die in protest 05:56.857 --> 06:01.261 on his home, at his property, which he was very annoyed by, 06:01.261 --> 06:03.530 and frustrated by, but also there's, 06:03.530 --> 06:05.398 so that's one part, there's this confusion, 06:05.398 --> 06:06.233 who's on the list? 06:06.233 --> 06:07.500 Yeah, help me, Bill. 06:07.500 --> 06:10.937 - Actually, to be specific about it, 06:10.937 --> 06:13.673 Mayor Strickland signed four separate lists 06:13.673 --> 06:17.244 that were what is called an authorization, 06:17.244 --> 06:20.013 and it was I don't want these people 06:20.013 --> 06:23.783 on my property, and his property in that case 06:23.783 --> 06:25.485 was his home. 06:25.485 --> 06:26.686 - [Eric] Okay. 06:26.686 --> 06:28.688 - Now, there were about 30 names on the list 06:28.688 --> 06:31.424 there were, at the most, about a dozen people 06:31.424 --> 06:35.328 involved in the die in on the front lawn of his house, 06:35.328 --> 06:37.998 and he says some were looking in the window, too. 06:37.998 --> 06:40.634 He says that the police department, 06:40.634 --> 06:41.901 he went to the police department and said look, 06:41.901 --> 06:43.136 I know what you're talking about now 06:43.136 --> 06:45.238 in terms of maybe beefing up security. 06:45.238 --> 06:46.406 They said great. 06:46.406 --> 06:48.408 Do this authorization on your property 06:48.408 --> 06:51.611 that says these people can't trespass at your home. 06:51.611 --> 06:55.015 And he said, okay, you come up with the names on the list, 06:55.015 --> 06:56.383 and I'll sign it. 06:56.383 --> 06:58.585 He signed, they came up with the names, 06:58.585 --> 07:00.787 he signed it, he says he doesn't know 07:00.787 --> 07:02.956 how they came up with all of the names, 07:02.956 --> 07:05.425 and then he says the next thing I know, 07:05.425 --> 07:07.594 this list goes public and I discover 07:07.594 --> 07:10.297 that the people who were on the list for my home 07:10.297 --> 07:12.132 are now on the list for City Hall. 07:12.132 --> 07:13.566 - [Bernal] For City Hall. 07:13.566 --> 07:17.103 - Right, and so all this, there's this murkiness about it, 07:17.103 --> 07:19.472 which I think that's disturbing to people. 07:19.472 --> 07:20.840 Because no one would say, look, 07:20.840 --> 07:22.275 if you've got a person who's got a history 07:22.275 --> 07:23.510 of mental illness, and violence, 07:23.510 --> 07:25.378 and I don't know that any of these people are. 07:25.378 --> 07:26.513 - [Bernal] Right. 07:26.513 --> 07:27.981 - There are appropriate lists for people 07:27.981 --> 07:29.549 who shouldn't be wandering around City Hall alone, right? 07:29.549 --> 07:30.784 - [Bernal] Right, but -- 07:30.784 --> 07:32.452 - But no one's saying these people are -- 07:32.452 --> 07:33.920 - If you look at the list -- 07:33.920 --> 07:35.455 - [Eric] Intellectually opposed to you or something. 07:35.455 --> 07:38.525 - These folks have basically done peaceful demonstrations 07:40.327 --> 07:41.561 in most cases. 07:41.561 --> 07:44.364 They haven't shown any propensity for violence 07:44.364 --> 07:48.535 or being overtly mentally disturbed or any kind of way. 07:50.904 --> 07:51.838 - [Eric] Right. 07:51.838 --> 07:54.407 - So how the list was developed, 07:54.407 --> 07:56.276 the information that went into it, 07:56.276 --> 07:58.645 I think there's a lot of questions 07:58.645 --> 08:02.215 that have to be answered, and I think most of them 08:02.215 --> 08:05.251 will probably be answered in a court of law 08:05.251 --> 08:08.588 if this lawsuit continues down the road. 08:09.689 --> 08:12.459 Who actually determined the list? 08:13.326 --> 08:14.260 - [Eric] Right. 08:14.260 --> 08:15.462 - What individuals went into it? 08:15.462 --> 08:17.630 What did the mayor, did the mayor know that? 08:17.630 --> 08:20.233 Outside of the situation at his home. 08:20.233 --> 08:22.035 I can understand someone saying hey, 08:22.035 --> 08:24.104 I want to protect family and my home, 08:24.104 --> 08:26.206 but then when it comes down to public places 08:26.206 --> 08:27.440 such as City Hall, etc. 08:27.440 --> 08:28.641 - [Eric] Right. 08:28.641 --> 08:29.909 - Then you cross the line into another space. 08:29.909 --> 08:31.611 - And we're also in this phase, 08:31.611 --> 08:36.049 from really in recent years, for me it's been 08:36.049 --> 08:37.617 the Tea Party movement, which was in part 08:37.617 --> 08:39.753 a reaction to Obamacare and Obama's presidency 08:39.753 --> 08:41.254 then the Black Lives Matter movement, 08:41.254 --> 08:43.189 now we've got protests in favor 08:43.189 --> 08:45.959 of the Affordable Care Act around the country. 08:45.959 --> 08:48.128 Kustoff was in town, David Kustoff, 08:48.128 --> 08:50.096 one of the local U.S. reps was in town. 08:50.096 --> 08:51.831 There were not protestors, but there was the potential 08:51.831 --> 08:53.133 that there would be protestors. 08:53.133 --> 08:55.335 We're in a protest phase in various ways 08:55.335 --> 08:56.569 from different sides. 08:56.569 --> 08:57.737 Protests at the Capitol this week 08:57.737 --> 08:59.739 that very much frustrated certain, 08:59.739 --> 09:01.274 which we'll talk about in a little bit. 09:01.274 --> 09:03.209 So, I guess the rules have to be 09:03.209 --> 09:04.911 a little bit more established I think 09:04.911 --> 09:06.446 is part of the lesson in this. 09:06.446 --> 09:07.714 - [Bernal] Right. 09:07.714 --> 09:09.315 - How you balance safety, security, 09:09.315 --> 09:12.585 we are a country of tremendous, horrific mass shootings 09:12.585 --> 09:13.887 and terrible things happening, 09:13.887 --> 09:15.422 but we're also a country of free speech, 09:15.422 --> 09:17.457 so it's interesting to see people struggle with this. 09:17.457 --> 09:19.559 - But, here's the thing. 09:19.559 --> 09:21.895 Michael Rawlings, who's the police director, 09:21.895 --> 09:26.065 a lot of this falls with him, and what he says happened, 09:27.567 --> 09:31.471 and he's reviewing the list, and he will not say 09:31.471 --> 09:33.773 how people's names were put on the list. 09:33.773 --> 09:36.409 He has denied that the police department 09:36.409 --> 09:40.947 did what has been termed political surveillance, 09:40.947 --> 09:43.349 and I think what we're going to find 09:43.349 --> 09:44.984 is that he's parsing his words there 09:44.984 --> 09:49.155 because he's also said I have an obligation to public safety 09:50.590 --> 09:53.760 and I think in his mind, he's making a distinction 09:53.760 --> 09:57.330 between following people, videotaping them, 09:58.765 --> 10:00.700 for what he defines as public safety 10:00.700 --> 10:02.836 versus for their political views. 10:02.836 --> 10:07.006 Well, the lawsuit, I think is going to point out that 10:08.775 --> 10:12.412 it's a distinction that has no meaning. 10:12.412 --> 10:15.648 - Right, no mayor, and because you have people 10:15.648 --> 10:18.251 like Paul Garner, who has been very clear 10:18.251 --> 10:21.988 about times when he's been followed. 10:21.988 --> 10:24.157 Mix up peace and justice. 10:24.157 --> 10:26.392 You have a number of the other, 10:26.392 --> 10:28.995 and the interesting thing is had it not been 10:28.995 --> 10:30.530 necessarily about race. 10:30.530 --> 10:31.798 - [Eric] Right. 10:31.798 --> 10:33.233 - Which I think was somehow interjected 10:33.233 --> 10:35.768 into this at some point, but it's really been 10:35.768 --> 10:39.205 a number of individuals who have voiced opposition 10:39.205 --> 10:42.876 to a number of things that have gone on in the city. 10:42.876 --> 10:45.044 And particularly have voiced opposition 10:45.044 --> 10:47.947 to this particular mayoral administration, 10:47.947 --> 10:51.918 and I think that's where things begin to get real murky. 10:51.918 --> 10:56.089 - And there is evidence that police have been doing this. 10:57.857 --> 11:01.528 I mean, in following the uptick in protests 11:01.528 --> 11:05.231 in the last year, all of us in new media I think 11:05.231 --> 11:08.434 have been hearing things, so you show up some place 11:08.434 --> 11:10.603 to see if there's a protest there, 11:10.603 --> 11:12.238 and the police are usually there, too 11:12.238 --> 11:13.673 in great numbers. 11:14.574 --> 11:15.408 - [Eric] Right. 11:15.408 --> 11:16.676 - So, you know -- 11:16.676 --> 11:17.477 - Which gets back in part to the software 11:17.477 --> 11:18.144 that Bernal mentioned. 11:18.144 --> 11:19.546 - [Bill] Right. 11:19.546 --> 11:20.813 - It allows, there's nothing illegal about that, 11:20.813 --> 11:22.615 I don't think anyone's, unless it's a violation 11:22.615 --> 11:25.518 of the consent order, but the software in and of itself. 11:25.518 --> 11:26.853 - It takes your public posts, so ... 11:26.853 --> 11:28.121 - Yeah, it's public posts, it's not that, 11:28.121 --> 11:29.856 so in and of itself, the software's not illegal, 11:29.856 --> 11:31.357 there are all kinds, we could buy it 11:31.357 --> 11:32.325 and track people if we wanted to. 11:32.325 --> 11:33.760 - Right. 11:33.760 --> 11:34.627 - But, yeah, it may violate the consent rule, 11:34.627 --> 11:36.129 but anyway, back to you. 11:36.129 --> 11:40.667 - But the point is that the phase of protests we're in now 11:40.667 --> 11:44.270 is a phase that is uncomfortable for a lot of people 11:44.270 --> 11:48.007 no matter what side you are on an issue. 11:48.007 --> 11:52.211 But, the right to dissent, the right to state your opinion 11:52.211 --> 11:54.380 even if it's not a popular opinion, 11:54.380 --> 11:55.748 and even if you do it in a way 11:55.748 --> 11:57.817 that may be abrasive, but which you feel 11:57.817 --> 11:59.919 you have to to get attention, 11:59.919 --> 12:03.156 that's different than public safety 12:03.156 --> 12:05.191 and your comfort is not something 12:05.191 --> 12:07.527 that's guaranteed by the Constitution. 12:07.527 --> 12:09.062 - Right, alright, we'll move from there. 12:09.062 --> 12:12.131 I mean, obviously a whole lot to still happen on that. 12:12.131 --> 12:13.399 But, we'll move to Beale Street, 12:13.399 --> 12:15.868 and I'll start with you, Bill. 12:15.868 --> 12:18.438 In council this week, we talked about it last week, 12:18.438 --> 12:20.306 there's again this kind of murkiness 12:20.306 --> 12:22.675 about where we're going with Beale Street, 12:22.675 --> 12:25.111 and who's in charge and why a particular group 12:25.111 --> 12:27.847 was not given the contract to manage Beale, 12:27.847 --> 12:29.649 and some more information came out this week 12:29.649 --> 12:32.719 that I think many people hadn't fully realized. 12:32.719 --> 12:35.788 - The Memphis City Council has had three committee sessions 12:35.788 --> 12:39.392 now in the last two months on Beale Street. 12:39.392 --> 12:42.695 Basically, this started with council members saying 12:42.695 --> 12:46.366 we hear all of these different acronyms and initials 12:46.366 --> 12:49.035 for who is running Beale Street, 12:50.203 --> 12:53.006 and we want to know how that works, 12:53.006 --> 12:56.342 and furthermore, the council wants to know 12:56.342 --> 12:59.445 why the Downtown Memphis Commission is still running 12:59.445 --> 13:02.348 day-to-day affairs on the street 13:02.348 --> 13:05.518 for three years running, when it was supposed to be 13:05.518 --> 13:08.121 about a six month interim assignment. 13:08.121 --> 13:10.256 - As it found a manager, a new manager -- 13:10.256 --> 13:11.257 - [Bill] Right, right. 13:11.257 --> 13:12.525 - And who has been on (mumbles). 13:12.525 --> 13:13.960 - Which was supposed to be the first job 13:13.960 --> 13:15.461 for the Beale Street Tourism Development Authority 13:15.461 --> 13:16.729 out of the box. 13:16.729 --> 13:19.332 Along the way, they've also been discussing 13:19.332 --> 13:22.702 why the Tourist Authority decided to 13:22.702 --> 13:26.572 end contract negotiations with 21 Beale Street, 13:26.572 --> 13:29.475 a group of people from Chicago and from Memphis, 13:29.475 --> 13:32.812 Memphians in Chicago, to run the street, 13:34.180 --> 13:36.683 who had emerged as basically the last man standing 13:36.683 --> 13:40.253 among three or four different proposals to do this. 13:40.253 --> 13:44.490 This week, it got real, so to speak, at council 13:44.490 --> 13:47.026 because some issues that had probably 13:47.026 --> 13:50.363 been talked about in the private contract negotiations 13:50.363 --> 13:53.633 were put out right there on the committee table in the open. 13:53.633 --> 13:57.804 One of the principals in 21 Beale had been disbarred some -- 13:59.672 --> 14:01.107 - [Bernal] 28 years ago. - Almost 20 years ago. 14:01.107 --> 14:01.974 - [Bernal] 28 years ago. 14:01.974 --> 14:04.010 - Yeah, 28 years ago. 14:04.010 --> 14:05.878 And the other principal had been an owner 14:05.878 --> 14:09.982 of a Chicago nightclub where there was a stampede 14:09.982 --> 14:14.153 in maybe 10 years ago or so in which 21 people died. 14:16.756 --> 14:20.560 Things that both of these individuals had talked about 14:20.560 --> 14:22.795 very openly and knew were going to come up 14:22.795 --> 14:25.331 in the contract negotiations. 14:25.331 --> 14:28.101 Now, it's kind of all out there before the council 14:28.101 --> 14:30.636 and the council is still talking this over 14:30.636 --> 14:34.474 and Bernal, you were there as a tenant on Beale Street, 14:34.474 --> 14:37.343 new Tri-State Defender has offices 14:37.343 --> 14:42.081 in the Beale Street district, and you as one of 14:42.081 --> 14:44.417 the tenants there, expressed your opinions about it. 14:44.417 --> 14:45.985 - And on this, you are not objective, and that's okay. 14:45.985 --> 14:47.453 - Right. 14:47.453 --> 14:48.054 - But just so we say it and disclose it completely. 14:48.054 --> 14:49.055 - Yeah. 14:49.055 --> 14:50.323 - This is a less objective issue. 14:50.323 --> 14:52.959 - Right, because clearly we've been in the midst, 14:52.959 --> 14:55.561 we've been both in it and of it, 14:55.561 --> 14:57.363 and so in this particular instance 14:57.363 --> 14:58.731 I spoke at the council meeting 14:58.731 --> 15:01.100 from my experience as a tenant, 15:01.100 --> 15:05.171 but also sort of representing a group of tenants, 15:05.171 --> 15:07.740 predominantly African American tenants 15:07.740 --> 15:11.878 who've had a less than favorable experience 15:11.878 --> 15:13.746 not only through this transition, 15:13.746 --> 15:15.982 but through all the various transitions 15:15.982 --> 15:18.584 that have taken place pretty much over the last four years. 15:18.584 --> 15:22.188 From going from Elkington to, and Performa, 15:23.523 --> 15:27.193 to DMC and now with the various changes 15:27.193 --> 15:31.097 with the Tourism Authority, the reality is that 15:32.498 --> 15:36.035 from our perspective, there's been a group of merchants 15:36.035 --> 15:38.271 or tenants, if you will, who've really been 15:38.271 --> 15:40.873 driving this conversation. 15:40.873 --> 15:43.276 And although the Tourism Authority 15:43.276 --> 15:46.045 is supposed to be an independent entity, 15:46.045 --> 15:48.047 they've pretty much as we've seen it 15:48.047 --> 15:49.782 taken their cues from the 15:49.782 --> 15:52.585 Beale Street Merchants Association, 15:52.585 --> 15:53.986 and the Merchants Association 15:53.986 --> 15:56.422 has primarily been driven by those 15:56.422 --> 15:58.691 with the preponderance of businesses 15:58.691 --> 16:01.761 which happen to be largely well-heeled 16:03.930 --> 16:06.599 white business owners on the street. 16:06.599 --> 16:10.369 And so, we just felt like, and I spoke to this 16:10.369 --> 16:14.106 at the council meeting, that the process 16:14.106 --> 16:16.642 has been less than transparent, 16:16.642 --> 16:19.912 it's been less than fair, and the reality is 16:19.912 --> 16:23.883 that there's a disparity between those of us 16:23.883 --> 16:28.454 on the east, predominantly on the east end of the street, 16:28.454 --> 16:29.889 which is where the majority of 16:29.889 --> 16:34.193 the African American tenants on the street are, 16:34.193 --> 16:36.729 and very few of us, you know, I've never been asked 16:36.729 --> 16:38.865 or talked to about being a part 16:38.865 --> 16:41.167 of that Merchants Association. 16:41.167 --> 16:42.635 Don't really know a whole lot about it, 16:42.635 --> 16:46.505 but there are a few of those businesses I represented there. 16:46.505 --> 16:48.975 - Would they say that, well, we're generating 16:48.975 --> 16:50.676 most of the dollars, most of the taxes, 16:50.676 --> 16:52.245 most of the traffic. 16:52.245 --> 16:54.013 I mean, the Tri-State Defender isn't going to 16:54.013 --> 16:55.214 generate a whole lot of traffic. 16:55.214 --> 16:56.582 That's not why you were there, that's -- 16:56.582 --> 16:58.117 - And we're different kind of tenants, 16:58.117 --> 17:01.921 so I may understand why we haven't been invited 17:01.921 --> 17:05.458 to that party, per se, but we still have an interest 17:05.458 --> 17:08.160 in ongoing development of the street, 17:08.160 --> 17:09.662 and the other components of this 17:09.662 --> 17:13.399 just relate to support and structure of bills 17:15.234 --> 17:19.338 and just transparency with how you build a street 17:20.406 --> 17:23.542 and build the businesses that are a part 17:24.510 --> 17:25.912 of the fabric of the street. 17:25.912 --> 17:27.980 And a lot of it goes back to the history. 17:27.980 --> 17:31.183 One of the things I vote, when you look at 17:31.183 --> 17:33.219 what Beale Street is quintessentially about 17:33.219 --> 17:35.955 it goes back to the black culture 17:37.623 --> 17:41.060 and experience and music and all those things 17:41.060 --> 17:44.430 that were, at one point, Beale Street was the center 17:44.430 --> 17:47.199 of commerce and social activity 17:47.199 --> 17:48.301 for the African American community. 17:48.301 --> 17:49.568 - [Eric] Right. 17:49.568 --> 17:51.037 - When we couldn't go on Main Street. 17:51.037 --> 17:53.039 When we couldn't go to those other places. 17:53.039 --> 17:55.508 And so to now go back and say, well, 17:55.508 --> 17:59.312 we're going to take that, all that experience, 18:00.513 --> 18:03.449 and exploit it economically and not have 18:04.317 --> 18:06.619 African Americans participating 18:06.619 --> 18:08.621 in that economic opportunity I think 18:08.621 --> 18:11.424 is not a good reflection of anything, 18:11.424 --> 18:13.960 particularly as the city of Memphis is concerned. 18:13.960 --> 18:17.463 - And we should point out that 21 Beale 18:17.463 --> 18:20.633 is an African American partnership, 18:20.633 --> 18:23.369 which is also another element in the discussion 18:23.369 --> 18:26.272 and in fact, 21 Beale in making their proposal 18:26.272 --> 18:30.076 did some focus group studies specifically 18:30.076 --> 18:33.379 on another critical piece of this discussion 18:33.379 --> 18:36.382 and that is that despite the history 18:37.717 --> 18:40.586 of African American commerce, culture, and history, 18:40.586 --> 18:43.689 that is Beale Street's contribution 18:43.689 --> 18:47.860 to the Memphis we know today, the street has a problem. 18:49.028 --> 18:51.130 The nightclubs have a problem drawing 18:51.130 --> 18:54.500 significant numbers of black patrons. 18:54.500 --> 18:56.135 - [Eric] They don't. 18:56.135 --> 18:57.370 - They don't. 18:57.370 --> 18:58.838 - [Eric] Yeah, they don't, they don't. 18:58.838 --> 19:01.273 - I don't think I'm telling any trade secrets there. 19:01.273 --> 19:02.475 - [Bernal] Right. 19:02.475 --> 19:05.444 - I worked on the street for eight years 19:05.444 --> 19:07.646 at a radio station that had its offices 19:07.646 --> 19:10.649 where the new Tri-State Defender is, 19:11.884 --> 19:14.186 and it is a predominantly white crowd, 19:14.186 --> 19:16.856 it is a predominantly out of town tourist crowd. 19:16.856 --> 19:18.357 - Yeah, I mean most of it. 19:18.357 --> 19:21.293 I remember that people forget, I have family come in town, 19:21.293 --> 19:22.628 they say, well how often do you go to Beale Street? 19:22.628 --> 19:23.796 I don't. 19:23.796 --> 19:25.164 And that's, I don't mean anything, 19:25.164 --> 19:26.999 it's just i go to these other places. 19:26.999 --> 19:29.368 It is kind of a tourist area. 19:29.368 --> 19:31.704 Is your point, and then we'll wrap this up, 19:31.704 --> 19:34.006 is it to say that well, we'd like to see 19:34.006 --> 19:37.510 more African American traffic and visiting, 19:37.510 --> 19:41.047 or is it, like what's the angle here? 19:41.047 --> 19:42.214 - I think, well, a couple things. 19:42.214 --> 19:44.784 One is that the city of Memphis 19:46.252 --> 19:48.521 and particularly the city council 19:48.521 --> 19:52.358 move in a way to create, to move barriers from 19:55.761 --> 20:00.032 the opportunity for transparent negotiation. 20:00.032 --> 20:03.602 So, you've got this Tourism Authority 20:03.602 --> 20:05.604 which essentially has not done anything 20:05.604 --> 20:08.407 that it was designed to do in the two years 20:08.407 --> 20:11.043 that it's been there, that needs to go away, 20:11.043 --> 20:12.278 and so that's one of the things. 20:12.278 --> 20:15.548 The other thing is that when you look at 20:15.548 --> 20:17.283 appointing a permanent manager, 20:17.283 --> 20:19.852 then hey, we need to move on that, 20:19.852 --> 20:24.323 and then the last thing is, relative to supporting 20:24.323 --> 20:26.425 the businesses that are on the street, 20:26.425 --> 20:28.727 particularly those of us who essentially 20:28.727 --> 20:31.897 have been sort of, and it's so complex 20:33.332 --> 20:35.367 I won't get into all the details of our situation, 20:35.367 --> 20:36.802 but pretty much most of those businesses 20:36.802 --> 20:38.237 have been the same way. 20:38.237 --> 20:39.705 They haven't participated in the marketing. 20:39.705 --> 20:42.141 They haven't participated in any of the things 20:42.141 --> 20:44.710 that benefits most of the businesses on Beale Street. 20:44.710 --> 20:46.912 And so the goal is to really get to a point 20:46.912 --> 20:49.381 where there's equity on the street. 20:49.381 --> 20:51.884 - And if people joined us late, you are a tenant there. 20:51.884 --> 20:53.285 - [Bernal] Yes. 20:53.285 --> 20:54.420 - And so, you're not objective, you don't have to be. 20:54.420 --> 20:55.588 - Sure, absolutely. 20:55.588 --> 20:57.289 - We disclose that. 20:57.289 --> 20:58.657 We'll move on to the legislature, 20:58.657 --> 20:59.959 and a variety of things are going on there. 20:59.959 --> 21:01.527 I did spend, as I think I mentioned, 21:01.527 --> 21:06.332 three days up there and everything's about the gas tax. 21:06.332 --> 21:08.033 I talked to lobbyists, I talked to legislatures. 21:08.033 --> 21:09.568 You go into talk about one thing, 21:09.568 --> 21:11.370 and inevitably you talk about the gas tax, 21:11.370 --> 21:13.772 or as they like to call it the user fee. 21:13.772 --> 21:15.508 I was at a thing where some joked about that, 21:15.508 --> 21:17.543 it's not a gas tax, it's a user fee. 21:17.543 --> 21:20.312 All this, the sense up there is that 21:20.312 --> 21:23.382 it's still not unlikely, but it's certainly 21:23.382 --> 21:25.518 the governor's plan is going to change, 21:25.518 --> 21:27.820 and you've got people, particularly in the House, 21:27.820 --> 21:30.523 who don't want to vote for what is a tax increase. 21:30.523 --> 21:32.958 Even though, every structure is 21:32.958 --> 21:34.426 it will not be new net revenue. 21:34.426 --> 21:36.996 So, for every new dollar they raise in gas taxes, 21:36.996 --> 21:39.899 they are cutting, and talking about cutting other taxes. 21:39.899 --> 21:41.433 But, there are just, particularly in the House, 21:41.433 --> 21:43.369 a whole lot of people who don't want to vote for, 21:43.369 --> 21:47.072 are afraid to vote for any kind of increase in taxes. 21:47.072 --> 21:50.943 - Clearly, and a lot of those legislators 21:50.943 --> 21:53.445 have run on no new taxes. 21:53.445 --> 21:54.747 - [Eric] Right. 21:54.747 --> 21:57.750 - And particularly those that are in rural areas 21:57.750 --> 22:00.786 where the level of income is not there. 22:00.786 --> 22:04.523 Any incremental increase in the price of gas 22:04.523 --> 22:07.359 potentially has a real impact to families 22:07.359 --> 22:10.663 and so I think they're going to be reluctant 22:10.663 --> 22:13.532 to support that in any significant way 22:13.532 --> 22:15.167 without some changes. 22:15.167 --> 22:16.535 - Also, you bring up the rural, 22:16.535 --> 22:17.736 and there's a lot of talk about, 22:17.736 --> 22:18.737 and we've talked about this on the show, 22:18.737 --> 22:20.439 there is a real divide in this, 22:20.439 --> 22:23.108 it seems fairly obvious, rural versus city. 22:23.108 --> 22:24.310 - [Bernal] Right. 22:24.310 --> 22:25.778 - And the way that the deal is structured 22:25.778 --> 22:30.182 I think 40% of the money that would be local options. 22:30.182 --> 22:31.650 So, Memphis would be able to stay focused 22:31.650 --> 22:33.619 on Lamar Avenue and the distribution corner. 22:33.619 --> 22:36.789 National really wants to focus on that mass transit, etc. 22:36.789 --> 22:38.557 These local areas just aren't going to get that much. 22:38.557 --> 22:39.825 - [Bernal] Right. 22:39.825 --> 22:41.293 - So, if you're a rural legislator, 22:41.293 --> 22:43.195 and you want to be up there, you're not going to get 22:43.195 --> 22:45.231 a whole lot because you don't have the population, 22:45.231 --> 22:46.899 the drivers, the gasoline being sold there. 22:46.899 --> 22:49.902 - You don't have the incentive to really, yeah. 22:49.902 --> 22:51.403 - Yeah, so Bill, I don't know, your thoughts on this, 22:51.403 --> 22:53.472 what you're hearing from here. 22:53.472 --> 22:56.809 - Well, at the outset of this, Bill Haslam said that 22:56.809 --> 23:00.846 what made this the right time to raise the fuel tax, 23:02.281 --> 23:04.750 gasoline and diesel, what made this the right time 23:04.750 --> 23:09.655 was the state's two billion dollar budget surplus. 23:09.655 --> 23:12.224 What's happened to him, and the reason 23:12.224 --> 23:15.761 that I think this is likely to be put off yet again, 23:15.761 --> 23:18.964 probably for next year, the last year of his term, 23:18.964 --> 23:20.466 is that legislators have looked at 23:20.466 --> 23:22.901 that two billion dollar surplus 23:22.901 --> 23:26.538 and they have said this is the exact right time 23:26.538 --> 23:29.608 to use that surplus on infrastructure 23:31.043 --> 23:33.545 as opposed to raising the gas tax. 23:33.545 --> 23:35.080 - Yeah, I mean you've got a lot of legislators 23:35.080 --> 23:36.482 saying hey, why are we going to raise taxes 23:36.482 --> 23:38.183 when we've got a two billion dollar surplus? 23:38.183 --> 23:39.652 - [Bernal] Right. 23:39.652 --> 23:41.453 - I was at an event, Haslam spoke, and he said look, 23:41.453 --> 23:44.356 if you start putting, for one, and it's a thing 23:44.356 --> 23:45.824 that you can't underestimate. 23:45.824 --> 23:48.794 We're one of the only states that doesn't issue debt 23:48.794 --> 23:50.129 for roads and infrastructure. 23:50.129 --> 23:51.497 I think we're one of only three. 23:51.497 --> 23:54.900 We're a zero debt state on that front. 23:54.900 --> 23:56.935 Two, his point, and there were some 23:56.935 --> 23:58.737 college university people in there, 23:58.737 --> 24:01.640 he said if you start pulling roads 24:01.640 --> 24:03.742 and infrastructure and so on out of the general fund 24:03.742 --> 24:06.145 when we have a recession or we have a slower economy, 24:06.145 --> 24:08.847 suddenly you're choosing between roads 24:08.847 --> 24:11.383 and teacher's salaries, university salaries. 24:11.383 --> 24:13.218 You know, in the funding of the state. 24:13.218 --> 24:14.420 And so, he would like to keep it 24:14.420 --> 24:15.888 in different buckets than other people would. 24:15.888 --> 24:17.956 But it's a compelling argument that others make. 24:17.956 --> 24:20.225 Look, you've got two billion dollars in the bank 24:20.225 --> 24:21.961 that is uncommitted. 24:21.961 --> 24:25.464 You can, why do we need to be raising taxes right now? 24:25.464 --> 24:26.699 The other thing was interesting, 24:26.699 --> 24:28.200 he talked about why he brought it up now. 24:28.200 --> 24:30.803 He said, you know, at the end of his term, 24:30.803 --> 24:33.072 he's term limited out, he didn't think, 24:33.072 --> 24:35.040 he said the need is huge, the state is growing, 24:35.040 --> 24:37.876 there's this huge backlog, he doesn't think, didn't think, 24:37.876 --> 24:40.012 that the next governor, whoever it is, 24:40.012 --> 24:41.680 will propose it in their first term 24:41.680 --> 24:44.216 because it's such a controversial thing to raise taxes. 24:44.216 --> 24:46.118 So that we'd be looking at six years 24:46.118 --> 24:48.020 before anything significant would happen. 24:48.020 --> 24:49.021 That was interesting. 24:49.021 --> 24:50.255 He also talked a little bit about 24:50.255 --> 24:51.590 you can sort of get a little of nostalgia, 24:51.590 --> 24:53.492 a little looking back on what it's like. 24:53.492 --> 24:55.094 He talked about how he's met, he thinks, 24:55.094 --> 24:57.730 with all of the unofficial candidates for governor 24:57.730 --> 24:59.965 and it was interesting in that sense. 24:59.965 --> 25:01.900 You or, David Kustoff was in town. 25:01.900 --> 25:04.803 We'll switch real quickly with just a minute left. 25:04.803 --> 25:06.772 What did you hear from David Kustoff? 25:06.772 --> 25:08.640 - We heard that he expects there to be 25:08.640 --> 25:10.809 Medicaid block grants of some kind, 25:10.809 --> 25:13.512 the terms obviously still to be worked out. 25:13.512 --> 25:17.716 He believes that the Republican majorities 25:17.716 --> 25:20.219 have about three to six months 25:21.653 --> 25:25.557 to get on the road what they want to do legislatively. 25:25.557 --> 25:27.893 They have a quick time frame here 25:27.893 --> 25:30.596 in which to go with what they think 25:30.596 --> 25:32.097 took them to Washington. 25:32.097 --> 25:34.666 - Yeah, and I heard a lot about that up in Nashville. 25:34.666 --> 25:36.635 A whole lot of people, some high level people, 25:36.635 --> 25:38.203 saying, you know, Republicans mostly, 25:38.203 --> 25:39.738 careful what you wish for. 25:39.738 --> 25:41.740 They've wanted to overturn Obamacare. 25:41.740 --> 25:45.010 Tennessee never expanded the Medicaid expansion, 25:45.010 --> 25:47.546 but they're, what, 100, 200 thousand. 25:47.546 --> 25:50.048 They're many, many people using Obamacare in Tennessee. 25:50.048 --> 25:52.184 That's a tough thing to take away. 25:52.184 --> 25:55.254 A benefit that they've received. 25:55.254 --> 25:56.488 That is all the time we have. 25:56.488 --> 25:58.157 Thank you, Bill, thank you, Bernal. 25:58.157 --> 25:59.591 Thank you for joining us. 25:59.591 --> 26:02.161 Join us again next week. 26:02.161 --> 26:04.563 (bold music) 26:24.883 --> 26:26.385 (guitar strum)