WEBVTT 00:01.335 --> 00:02.469 - [Voiceover] Production funding for Behind the Headlines 00:02.469 --> 00:04.872 is made possible in part by... 00:04.872 --> 00:06.607 - [Voiceover] Yuletide Office Solutions, 00:06.607 --> 00:08.275 locally owned family operated, 00:08.275 --> 00:10.244 offering office supplies and furniture, 00:10.244 --> 00:12.846 office design services, school supplies, and more. 00:12.846 --> 00:14.681 The Yuletide team proudly supports 00:14.681 --> 00:19.686 the Bartlett area Chamber of Commerce and WKNO. 00:19.953 --> 00:21.855 - [Voiceover] The WKNO Production Fund, 00:21.855 --> 00:26.260 the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you. 00:26.260 --> 00:27.728 Thank you. 00:27.728 --> 00:29.596 - The priorities and politics of the county commission, 00:29.596 --> 00:31.865 tonight on Behind the Headlines. 00:31.865 --> 00:35.869 (orchestral music) 00:48.015 --> 00:49.783 I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of the Memphis Daily News, 00:49.783 --> 00:51.084 thanks for joining us. 00:51.084 --> 00:52.619 I'm joined tonight by Terry Roland, 00:52.619 --> 00:54.321 chairman of the Shelby County commission. 00:54.321 --> 00:55.522 - Good to see you. 00:55.522 --> 00:56.690 - Absolutely, and Heidi Shafer, 00:56.690 --> 00:57.858 also from the county commission. 00:57.858 --> 00:58.892 Thanks for being back. 00:58.892 --> 01:00.160 - Thanks for having me. 01:00.160 --> 01:01.628 - Also Bill Dries, senior reporter 01:01.628 --> 01:03.096 with the Memphis Daily News. 01:03.096 --> 01:04.264 Well, we'll talk through-- 01:04.264 --> 01:06.300 A lot is going on with the commission, 01:06.300 --> 01:07.734 but I want to start with, because it's 01:07.734 --> 01:10.704 maybe emblematic of a conversation 01:10.704 --> 01:13.373 that is going on in the business and political community 01:13.373 --> 01:15.075 throughout Memphis and Shelby County, 01:15.075 --> 01:17.110 and the whole area, which is the combination, 01:17.110 --> 01:20.147 and it involves EDGE, EDGE being the organization, 01:20.147 --> 01:21.949 Economic Development Growth Engine, 01:21.949 --> 01:24.418 that administers PILOTs and other tax incentives, 01:24.418 --> 01:27.521 and a proposal that the mayors came forward with, 01:27.521 --> 01:29.256 city and county, back in the spring, I believe, 01:29.256 --> 01:32.526 to combine the Community Redevelopment Agency into EDGE. 01:32.526 --> 01:34.628 I think you're concerned about that. 01:34.628 --> 01:36.063 - Absolutely. 01:36.063 --> 01:38.598 - Tell me, let's talk about why, maybe I turn to Bill, 01:38.598 --> 01:40.534 what is the Community Redevelopment Agency, 01:40.534 --> 01:42.302 so people understand, it's a very important group, 01:42.302 --> 01:44.304 but it's not one that gets as much play. 01:44.304 --> 01:47.841 - Right, basically, its value is that 01:47.841 --> 01:50.444 it is the agency that primarily deals with 01:50.444 --> 01:53.547 development in the uptown section of Memphis, 01:53.547 --> 01:55.949 as well as the Highland Road development by 01:55.949 --> 01:58.885 the University of Memphis, and so you had 01:58.885 --> 02:02.155 this proposal which I believe first came up on the cityside, 02:02.155 --> 02:03.757 Mayor Wharton was the first to 02:03.757 --> 02:05.359 surface with it over there, 02:05.359 --> 02:07.094 it drew some resistance there, 02:07.094 --> 02:08.662 and now it's drawing resistance 02:08.662 --> 02:10.397 among the commission, as well as some 02:10.397 --> 02:12.199 questions about what this means. 02:12.199 --> 02:14.968 - And it administers the TIFs, not the PILOTs, 02:14.968 --> 02:16.870 attacking increment financing, which we'll get into, 02:16.870 --> 02:20.073 but why are you concerned about this proposal? 02:20.073 --> 02:23.210 - Well, first of all, I mean, A, 02:23.210 --> 02:26.246 the way it was created, I think after 02:26.246 --> 02:30.183 being there for six years and watching it, 02:30.183 --> 02:33.587 it wasn't created right. 02:33.587 --> 02:36.156 What you have now, you have a board 02:36.156 --> 02:38.258 that virtually has no power. 02:38.258 --> 02:41.294 The president, Reid Bulberger, 02:41.294 --> 02:43.797 he doesn't have to report to the board-- 02:43.797 --> 02:44.998 - To the EDGE board. 02:44.998 --> 02:46.166 - To the EDGE board. 02:46.166 --> 02:47.668 He reports to the mayor. 02:47.668 --> 02:50.437 To me, there's no oversight there. 02:50.437 --> 02:52.672 EDGE needs some tweaking. 02:52.672 --> 02:55.075 We cannot unscramble the egg. 02:55.075 --> 02:58.512 EDGE, it is a good tool, but we have to 02:58.512 --> 03:00.247 restructure it in a way, 03:00.247 --> 03:03.016 and what I'm suggesting is that we put 03:03.016 --> 03:06.553 the member of the city council and commission 03:06.553 --> 03:09.589 that are on EDGE, make them voting members, 03:09.589 --> 03:13.393 give the EDGE board the power, 03:13.393 --> 03:17.030 let them hire the president or whatever, 03:17.030 --> 03:19.199 he reports to the EDGE board, 03:19.199 --> 03:21.334 and the EDGE board reports to the city council 03:21.334 --> 03:22.836 and the county commission. 03:22.836 --> 03:24.371 - Would the county commission and the city council 03:24.371 --> 03:26.206 vote on proposals in that? 03:26.206 --> 03:29.076 I mean, would they have formal voting oversight 03:29.076 --> 03:30.610 of the PILOTs and so on? 03:30.610 --> 03:34.548 - Eventually, I mean, evidently, we still do. 03:34.548 --> 03:37.451 And, therefore comes-- 03:37.451 --> 03:41.021 See, I've been to Nashville and Charlotte and Louisville, 03:41.021 --> 03:44.157 and that's why these, 03:44.157 --> 03:47.594 I don't want to say PILOTs, TIFs, 03:47.594 --> 03:50.697 that's how these other cities are beating us to death, 03:50.697 --> 03:52.265 is with TIFs. 03:52.265 --> 03:55.836 And, if you put all your eggs in one cart, 03:55.836 --> 03:58.371 under one domain, you know, 03:58.371 --> 04:02.442 are we really using, reaching our potential? 04:02.442 --> 04:05.112 - Yeah. If you want, Bill do a quick tutorial 04:05.112 --> 04:06.980 on what a TIF is, versus a PILOT. 04:06.980 --> 04:10.317 - Tax Increment Financing is what TIF stands for. 04:10.317 --> 04:12.619 Basically, what you're dealing with in that case 04:12.619 --> 04:16.790 is property tax revenue that is going 04:16.790 --> 04:19.192 to come back into, it, 04:19.192 --> 04:21.495 it amounts to an exchange of that 04:21.495 --> 04:24.698 going into the project to finance the bonds 04:24.698 --> 04:26.733 that are involved for it. 04:26.733 --> 04:28.201 - Is it also sales tax? 04:28.201 --> 04:29.669 That the sales tax that would otherwise go to Nashville 04:29.669 --> 04:31.438 comes back into, 04:31.438 --> 04:33.840 the former head of the budget committee is nodding to me. 04:33.840 --> 04:35.275 - Yes. 04:35.275 --> 04:36.643 - Sales tax money that would otherwise go to Nashville 04:36.643 --> 04:37.911 stays in that TIF area. 04:37.911 --> 04:39.780 - Correct, and the reason that it 04:39.780 --> 04:41.481 can have a real benefit is that 04:41.481 --> 04:43.750 instead, when Nashville gets it, 04:43.750 --> 04:45.485 then they spread it out amongst other 04:45.485 --> 04:48.221 counties in the state, 04:48.221 --> 04:50.157 whereas this way, with TIFs, 04:50.157 --> 04:52.192 you're able to keep it for yourself 04:52.192 --> 04:54.661 to rebuild and reinvest in your own community. 04:54.661 --> 04:57.097 And so, I see some real benefits with TIFs. 04:57.097 --> 04:59.199 If you don't mind me backtracking just a little bit, 04:59.199 --> 05:03.970 I really have thought EDGE was a great idea, 05:03.970 --> 05:07.741 and I think it's really advanced us down the road. 05:07.741 --> 05:11.411 Prior to EDGE, when businesses would come 05:11.411 --> 05:13.780 in front of the two legislative bodies 05:13.780 --> 05:17.150 it was, it was kind of a grilling process, 05:17.150 --> 05:21.254 and sometimes, companies started 05:21.254 --> 05:23.757 to redline us, out of doing business with us, 05:23.757 --> 05:25.826 because they didn't want to take the PR hit 05:25.826 --> 05:28.228 of being asked in a public meeting 05:28.228 --> 05:30.897 questions that, you know, 05:30.897 --> 05:33.333 that they weren't ready to disclose, 05:33.333 --> 05:35.735 like some of their private financing and things, 05:35.735 --> 05:38.171 and, of course, then the media would hit it, 05:38.171 --> 05:42.776 you would take the most fraught examples. 05:42.776 --> 05:45.045 So, what EDGE has really done well 05:45.045 --> 05:48.582 is created a streamlined kind of one-stop shop 05:48.582 --> 05:51.184 for when people want to come do business with us, 05:51.184 --> 05:53.053 instead of going to the City Council 05:53.053 --> 05:54.921 and the County Commission, all these different places. 05:54.921 --> 05:57.057 There is a first place for them to go, 05:57.057 --> 06:00.894 corral that, get them to the right places, 06:00.894 --> 06:02.629 and then move forward. 06:02.629 --> 06:04.297 But like with any program, 06:04.297 --> 06:05.599 you know, you start something off, 06:05.599 --> 06:07.200 and you can't always predict exactly 06:07.200 --> 06:08.735 how things are going to flow. 06:08.735 --> 06:11.338 There probably do need to be some tweaks. 06:11.338 --> 06:12.739 - Which you would-- For instance. 06:12.739 --> 06:14.908 - For instance, the fact that the city councilman 06:14.908 --> 06:17.844 and the county commissioner have no voting rights 06:17.844 --> 06:19.045 over that at all. 06:19.045 --> 06:20.213 - On that EDGE board. 06:20.213 --> 06:21.514 So, they're really just observers. 06:21.514 --> 06:22.515 - They're just observers, but that is our, 06:22.515 --> 06:24.351 that is our legislative duty. 06:24.351 --> 06:27.587 We're the ones that have full responsibility for it. 06:27.587 --> 06:31.958 - So, to combine CRA, 06:31.958 --> 06:33.994 the Community Redevelopment Agency, 06:33.994 --> 06:36.529 into EDGE, it would have to go to the full county commission 06:36.529 --> 06:37.998 and the full city council. 06:37.998 --> 06:39.833 Long ways from that happening. 06:39.833 --> 06:41.368 If some tweaks happened, 06:41.368 --> 06:43.703 would you be in favor of CRA going under EDGE? 06:43.703 --> 06:45.372 Or, is it too early to say? 06:45.372 --> 06:47.674 - Well, it's not really too early to say, 06:47.674 --> 06:49.843 but at the end of the day, 06:49.843 --> 06:52.145 putting voting members from each body 06:52.145 --> 06:54.848 would go a long way with what I, 06:54.848 --> 06:59.152 settling the oversight issue, and making 06:59.152 --> 07:02.289 the president, for lack of better terms, 07:02.289 --> 07:06.626 responsible to report to the board. 07:06.626 --> 07:09.529 Right now, the board doesn't have any power. 07:09.529 --> 07:10.764 - But do you worry that-- 07:10.764 --> 07:12.966 And, Reid Dulberger's been on the show before, 07:12.966 --> 07:14.534 and other people, and everyone says 07:14.534 --> 07:15.969 about PILOTs and these, 07:15.969 --> 07:18.672 that they are an evil, and people have various degrees 07:18.672 --> 07:20.273 to which they say it is a necessary evil. 07:20.273 --> 07:22.008 Because they're difficult and they're frustrating, 07:22.008 --> 07:23.310 and they're frustrating for taxpayers, 07:23.310 --> 07:24.878 and, all that. 07:24.878 --> 07:26.613 But they are necessary, what people will say, 07:26.613 --> 07:30.483 because the process in Desoto County is so streamlined. 07:30.483 --> 07:32.452 It's a very simple system, 07:32.452 --> 07:35.288 and it really is embodied in one person. 07:35.288 --> 07:36.389 So, the businesses that are looking 07:36.389 --> 07:37.857 to locate or relocate, they can, 07:37.857 --> 07:40.093 the advocates say, they go to this one guy, 07:40.093 --> 07:43.830 and he doles out the incentives, done, signed, it's over. 07:43.830 --> 07:46.399 Versus, this very bureaucratic process that, 07:46.399 --> 07:47.901 as Heidi just said. 07:47.901 --> 07:49.202 So, I'm assume you don't want to go back to that 07:49.202 --> 07:50.570 very bureaucratic process. 07:50.570 --> 07:51.671 - No, no, no, that's what I said about, 07:51.671 --> 07:53.473 you can't unscamble the egg. 07:53.473 --> 07:58.478 But we can implement different levels of oversight 07:59.212 --> 08:03.850 and one of them being a voting member. 08:03.850 --> 08:05.685 But let me say this about PILOTs. 08:05.685 --> 08:08.588 I'm very mixed on PILOTs. 08:08.588 --> 08:11.324 I know sometimes people say they're a necessary evil. 08:11.324 --> 08:13.793 But you got to look at it in a common sense way. 08:13.793 --> 08:15.962 You know, say, for instance, 08:15.962 --> 08:17.263 just give you a good for instance, 08:17.263 --> 08:18.665 say, nine and a half billion dollars, 08:18.665 --> 08:20.367 if you give a PILOT to a company 08:20.367 --> 08:22.068 for nine and a half billion dollars. 08:22.068 --> 08:24.471 Well, that nine and a half million dollars, 08:24.471 --> 08:28.108 the government still needs that funding 08:28.108 --> 08:29.943 to run on, right? 08:29.943 --> 08:32.746 So, the only other way that Shelby County has 08:32.746 --> 08:35.782 to replace that 9.5 that you just gave away 08:35.782 --> 08:37.884 is to put it on the back of the taxpayer 08:37.884 --> 08:39.486 in the form of a property tax. 08:39.486 --> 08:41.087 We got to get away from that. 08:41.087 --> 08:42.856 That's killing Shelby County. 08:42.856 --> 08:44.724 - One more question, and we'll move on from this stuff. 08:44.724 --> 08:47.160 Why are TIFs not used-- 08:47.160 --> 08:48.628 I've heard various people say this, 08:48.628 --> 08:49.996 but let's go to you, Heidi. 08:49.996 --> 08:52.432 Why-- All these other cities, as Terry just said, 08:52.432 --> 08:54.868 they use TIFs way more effectively than we do. 08:54.868 --> 08:56.503 Why does Shelby County, Memphis, 08:56.503 --> 08:58.138 why do they, why don't we use TIFs? 08:58.138 --> 08:59.339 - Well, and it's interesting, 08:59.339 --> 09:01.908 so, every commission has a different makeup, 09:01.908 --> 09:04.778 as Mr. Dries will sure testify. 09:04.778 --> 09:06.212 So, when you have new members on, 09:06.212 --> 09:07.514 they have different ideas. 09:07.514 --> 09:09.682 Previous county commissioners have 09:09.682 --> 09:12.752 really just had a bee in their bonnet about TIFs, 09:12.752 --> 09:16.823 under the idea that, we're too poor a community 09:16.823 --> 09:18.792 for TIFs to be successful. 09:18.792 --> 09:20.660 They think that we won't generate 09:20.660 --> 09:23.430 the increment in order to do it, 09:23.430 --> 09:24.964 they think we're too poor a community. 09:24.964 --> 09:28.134 I think that, I think it's worth doing, 09:28.134 --> 09:30.503 worth going into and worth investing. 09:30.503 --> 09:33.072 But you have to do your due diligence on it. 09:33.072 --> 09:34.307 - Yeah, right. 09:34.307 --> 09:35.508 Your take on why, and then we'll move on. 09:35.508 --> 09:37.310 Why we don't use more TIFs. 09:37.310 --> 09:38.711 Is that, do you think that's... 09:38.711 --> 09:41.848 - I think that, in the past, 09:41.848 --> 09:44.184 you've had one person over there in the CRA. 09:44.184 --> 09:46.820 They haven't had any staff. 09:46.820 --> 09:50.356 We've done three TIFs, one of them is the Uptown, 09:50.356 --> 09:53.026 we did one in Millington-- 09:53.026 --> 09:54.360 - [Heidi] One on Highland. 09:54.360 --> 09:56.162 - One on Highland. 09:56.162 --> 09:58.798 Well, there's four, then, because we did Elvis Presley, too. 09:58.798 --> 10:00.099 - OK, OK. 10:00.099 --> 10:01.534 So, it's partly just a staff thing, 10:01.534 --> 10:02.469 and I've read that, too, 10:02.469 --> 10:04.003 that the agency was set up, 10:04.003 --> 10:05.572 but it doesn't have full time staff, and so on and so forth. 10:05.572 --> 10:06.773 OK, let's move on. Bill. 10:06.773 --> 10:10.443 - Let's talk about the county commission 10:10.443 --> 10:12.045 having its own attorney, 10:12.045 --> 10:14.981 which is another hot topic of discussion 10:14.981 --> 10:18.451 between the commission and the administration. 10:18.451 --> 10:22.388 So, to review where we've been on that, 10:22.388 --> 10:25.558 the commission approved doing that. 10:25.558 --> 10:27.660 The mayor vetoed that. 10:27.660 --> 10:30.363 The commission overrode that veto. 10:30.363 --> 10:32.665 Where are we now, Mr. Chairman? 10:32.665 --> 10:36.102 - Well, I'm in talks with the county attorney. 10:36.102 --> 10:39.672 We're going to try to work through this. 10:39.672 --> 10:42.275 If we can't get there, 10:42.275 --> 10:46.379 we might go to court, just ask for a declaratory judgment. 10:46.379 --> 10:48.681 Let me say this. 10:48.681 --> 10:51.651 We played by the rules. 10:51.651 --> 10:53.820 First of all, the only way 10:53.820 --> 10:55.855 we could hire a special counselor, 10:55.855 --> 10:57.490 completely says it in the charter 10:57.490 --> 11:01.094 that we are within our rights to hire a special counsel. 11:01.094 --> 11:04.464 Well, we did that. I did that with a stroke of the pen. 11:04.464 --> 11:06.466 Just to get it started, OK? 11:06.466 --> 11:08.635 But I wanted buy-in from the commissioner. 11:08.635 --> 11:10.069 So, we passed-- 11:10.069 --> 11:12.238 And the county attorney clearly sent me a letter, 11:12.238 --> 11:16.209 saying if he can't write a contract to us, 11:16.209 --> 11:17.644 we pass the resolution. 11:17.644 --> 11:19.612 We passed the resolution. 11:19.612 --> 11:22.749 The mayor vetoed it, we overrode his veto. 11:22.749 --> 11:24.918 Now, if you look at the charter, 11:24.918 --> 11:27.987 and believe me, I'm not thinking of going 11:27.987 --> 11:29.422 in this direction, 11:29.422 --> 11:31.791 but the next step per the charter says 11:31.791 --> 11:34.227 that I write him a letter and give him ten days 11:34.227 --> 11:37.430 or we can start ouster procedures on him. 11:37.430 --> 11:39.532 I don't want to do that. 11:39.532 --> 11:44.337 So, what I'm, if the county attorney and myself 11:44.337 --> 11:47.440 and the commission can't work out something, 11:47.440 --> 11:49.242 I'm sure we'll go to court, 11:49.242 --> 11:51.511 and what we'll do is we'll get a different attorney, 11:51.511 --> 11:54.881 we won't use the one that we're trying to hire, 11:54.881 --> 11:56.749 because that wouldn't be appropriate-- 11:56.749 --> 11:57.850 - Julian Bolton. 11:57.850 --> 11:59.285 - Right, Julian Bolton. 11:59.285 --> 12:01.387 And I'll tell you why we came up with Julian Bolton. 12:01.387 --> 12:03.656 But anyway, if we go, we're going to go 12:03.656 --> 12:07.060 just to ask for a declaratory judgment, 12:07.060 --> 12:10.830 and, of course, I'm going to ask the people that I know, 12:10.830 --> 12:13.333 three people, especially the chairman 12:13.333 --> 12:15.234 of the charter commission 12:15.234 --> 12:17.737 that wrote the charter to come in and tell us 12:17.737 --> 12:19.872 what they meant, 12:19.872 --> 12:22.775 and they meant for us to have council. 12:22.775 --> 12:24.010 - Mm-hmm. 12:24.010 --> 12:25.511 Commissioner Schaffer, your point on this. 12:25.511 --> 12:26.946 - Thank you, yes. 12:26.946 --> 12:29.716 I've been around up at the commission for quite a while 12:29.716 --> 12:32.018 because I was staff for Commissioner Flynn, also, 12:32.018 --> 12:34.020 so I've worked with several different county attorneys, 12:34.020 --> 12:36.856 and the real rub is the legal advice 12:36.856 --> 12:38.758 that we've been getting lately 12:38.758 --> 12:41.494 has been differently interpreted 12:41.494 --> 12:43.696 than any other county attorneys ever 12:43.696 --> 12:47.367 and before, so, the way the charter is structured, 12:47.367 --> 12:49.302 there is a county attorney's office 12:49.302 --> 12:50.603 that's supposed to serve both 12:50.603 --> 12:53.306 the executive and the legislative branches, 12:53.306 --> 12:55.808 and we're co-equal branches of government, right, 12:55.808 --> 12:58.244 but there are supposed to be checks and balances there. 12:58.244 --> 13:00.647 And previous county attorneys have always, 13:00.647 --> 13:03.850 if there are differences between executive and legislative, 13:03.850 --> 13:08.021 they realize they cannot be legal council for both parties. 13:08.021 --> 13:10.089 Right? You can't do that. 13:10.089 --> 13:12.191 So, they would hire outside council. 13:12.191 --> 13:15.161 This county attorney has failed and refused to do so, 13:15.161 --> 13:18.498 and is trying to represent both parties, 13:18.498 --> 13:21.834 and in my view that is an unacceptable conflict of interest. 13:21.834 --> 13:24.804 This is really important. This is Civics 101. 13:24.804 --> 13:27.473 This is the separation of powers. 13:27.473 --> 13:31.844 This is about the commission being the voice of the people. 13:31.844 --> 13:34.347 We've got to keep a balance in there. 13:34.347 --> 13:36.783 The executive branch is trying to reach over 13:36.783 --> 13:40.887 and reach into our powers, and we can't allow that. 13:40.887 --> 13:43.690 - What started this? 13:43.690 --> 13:45.658 What was the issue, or the issues 13:45.658 --> 13:47.560 that you just said, that started this? 13:47.560 --> 13:49.862 And I'll start with Heidi, but the same question to you. 13:49.862 --> 13:53.433 - So, for me, it's been over a year's worth 13:53.433 --> 13:56.469 of very questionable legal interpretations. 13:56.469 --> 13:58.204 I'll give you several examples. 13:58.204 --> 14:00.473 One is we were told during budget season 14:00.473 --> 14:03.409 that we had no right to amend the budget, 14:03.409 --> 14:06.979 that all we could do was vote the budget up or down. 14:06.979 --> 14:09.916 It's clearly not said that way in the charter. 14:09.916 --> 14:11.217 Another one that they said-- 14:11.217 --> 14:12.652 - Mr. Roland is agreeing with you. 14:12.652 --> 14:15.488 - Another one that we were told 14:15.488 --> 14:20.493 is that we don't have the right to our own council, 14:21.360 --> 14:24.931 or to hire anybody that we desire. 14:24.931 --> 14:28.701 Another one, this is a small one, 14:28.701 --> 14:30.737 but you know how I am about money, Bill. 14:30.737 --> 14:34.107 The proposal came up in front of us to spend 14:34.107 --> 14:36.876 nearly a penny, over a penny on the tax rate, 14:36.876 --> 14:39.879 1.8 on building a new building to house archives. 14:39.879 --> 14:42.882 When I asked why we were still housing paper 14:42.882 --> 14:47.887 in an era where everyone is housing things digitally, 14:48.087 --> 14:50.523 the response we got from our attorneys is 14:50.523 --> 14:53.126 that it was a state law that required it. 14:53.126 --> 14:56.095 And I pressed him on it, and asked him for the citation. 14:56.095 --> 14:58.064 They said they'd get it to me, never did. 14:58.064 --> 15:00.500 I called Trey Hargutt over at the state, 15:00.500 --> 15:02.335 and there is no such law, 15:02.335 --> 15:03.770 and Trey's over at archives, 15:03.770 --> 15:06.506 and there is no such law at all. 15:06.506 --> 15:10.376 So, I object to spending over a penny on the tax rate 15:10.376 --> 15:11.944 to build a building. 15:11.944 --> 15:15.314 But we're getting consistently poor information. 15:15.314 --> 15:16.249 - Let me-- 15:16.249 --> 15:17.049 - Do you agree with all that? 15:17.049 --> 15:18.451 - I agree 100 percent, 15:18.451 --> 15:23.089 and me and Heidi's been together a long time in politics. 15:23.089 --> 15:27.660 Let me tell you, when I, or Heidi, 15:27.660 --> 15:31.597 or one of the other commissioners sends up for a resolution. 15:31.597 --> 15:34.767 Let me give you a good one. 15:34.767 --> 15:37.937 I just told the administrator, 15:37.937 --> 15:40.473 we're trying to, what we're trying to do 15:40.473 --> 15:42.508 is combine two temps' jobs and hire 15:42.508 --> 15:44.944 a full time person for our front desk, 15:44.944 --> 15:48.147 and we're talking about hiring a budget analyst. 15:48.147 --> 15:51.717 So I had him write up a resolution, to leave it blank. 15:51.717 --> 15:56.722 And, the resolution has still to this day 15:57.023 --> 15:59.458 not made it back to me, 15:59.458 --> 16:01.160 - From the county commission. 16:01.160 --> 16:01.828 Or the county attorney. 16:01.828 --> 16:02.695 - Attorney. 16:02.695 --> 16:04.063 But, the mayor 16:04.063 --> 16:06.098 gets a copy of it 16:06.098 --> 16:08.234 and he's going all over town showing people. 16:08.234 --> 16:09.669 Now, that's not right. 16:09.669 --> 16:12.205 - Right, and there's an even deeper issue, though, 16:12.205 --> 16:14.774 and this one to me is the really problematic one. 16:14.774 --> 16:17.577 The county attorney threatened our legislative immunity 16:17.577 --> 16:20.012 if we disagree with any of his opinions. 16:20.012 --> 16:23.883 And he's trying to make in my view his opinion 16:23.883 --> 16:25.852 binding on the commission, 16:25.852 --> 16:29.722 so what he's saying is that if we pass a resolution 16:29.722 --> 16:32.725 and his opinion disagrees with what we passed 16:32.725 --> 16:35.127 that we could run the risk of having 16:35.127 --> 16:37.563 our legislative immunity removed 16:37.563 --> 16:40.066 which would mean we'd be open to personal lawsuit. 16:40.066 --> 16:42.301 We even posed the question, 16:42.301 --> 16:44.403 if we got an opinion from 16:44.403 --> 16:47.306 the attorney general of the state of Tennessee, 16:47.306 --> 16:50.476 and he agreed with us, but you agreed the other way, 16:50.476 --> 16:52.912 and he said, no, my opinion rules. 16:52.912 --> 16:55.815 The opinion of an attorney-- 16:55.815 --> 16:59.719 The attorney general of the United States of America, 16:59.719 --> 17:02.588 his opinion is not binding on the Congress. 17:02.588 --> 17:04.757 An opinion of an attorney is never binding 17:04.757 --> 17:06.492 on a legislative body. 17:06.492 --> 17:08.527 And so, these are issues that are, 17:08.527 --> 17:10.763 like I said, it's Civics 101. 17:10.763 --> 17:12.565 They're real issues, though. 17:12.565 --> 17:15.601 - Mr. Chairman, you've talked about working out 17:15.601 --> 17:19.906 a contract deal with the Shelby County attorney's office 17:19.906 --> 17:22.208 between the commission and the attorney's office. 17:22.208 --> 17:26.245 And Mayor Lutro has responded pretty forcefully 17:26.245 --> 17:28.047 in discussions I've had with him, 17:28.047 --> 17:31.083 saying that that may be a contract, 17:31.083 --> 17:34.320 but that contract ultimately comes back to him. 17:34.320 --> 17:37.056 It ultimately winds up with him, 17:37.056 --> 17:39.659 even though you're talking with the county attorney. 17:39.659 --> 17:43.529 Is that accurate, and if that is... 17:43.529 --> 17:47.266 - If that's accurate, and I told him, per the charter, 17:47.266 --> 17:51.137 he's over the contracts. OK? 17:51.137 --> 17:55.141 But as per the charter, I'm over the agenda. 17:55.141 --> 17:58.644 So, if he wants something on the agenda, 17:58.644 --> 18:01.647 he needs to talk about maybe signing this contract. 18:01.647 --> 18:04.450 - And, you know, what this says is that, 18:04.450 --> 18:07.320 an administrator, the mayor is an administrator. 18:07.320 --> 18:09.422 The commission is the county, OK? 18:09.422 --> 18:11.023 The commission makes the laws. 18:11.023 --> 18:13.593 The administrator is taxed with the charter 18:13.593 --> 18:16.062 with executing those laws. 18:16.062 --> 18:18.064 - And so, this is obviously ongoing. 18:18.064 --> 18:20.366 Next step, going to court to get 18:20.366 --> 18:23.970 clarification from a judge on how the charter, 18:23.970 --> 18:26.005 you think it should be interpreted, 18:26.005 --> 18:27.106 and we go from there. 18:27.106 --> 18:28.307 When will that happen, timing wise? 18:28.307 --> 18:30.576 - I'm going to say right after the holidays. 18:30.576 --> 18:31.744 - If we have to. 18:31.744 --> 18:32.645 - If we have to. 18:32.645 --> 18:33.813 - If you can't negotiate it. 18:33.813 --> 18:35.014 - I'm hoping we can still work it out. 18:35.014 --> 18:36.482 - Right. I'm hoping we can work it out. 18:36.482 --> 18:39.652 But, these are, you know, these are very serious issues. 18:39.652 --> 18:43.422 - Yeah, and there are some important concepts involved here. 18:43.422 --> 18:47.360 But, from hearing what you've both said, 18:47.360 --> 18:51.297 and from hearing what the mayor has said, 18:51.297 --> 18:54.266 right now there's not a whole lot of agreement 18:54.266 --> 18:56.535 between the two points of view on this. 18:56.535 --> 18:59.238 - But I'm glad you brought that up. 18:59.238 --> 19:02.041 It's not us not willing to work with him. 19:02.041 --> 19:05.277 It's the vice versa. 19:05.277 --> 19:07.013 - And this has been developing for over a year. 19:07.013 --> 19:10.082 We have tried and tried and tried and tried. 19:10.082 --> 19:12.184 And it's becoming worse, not better. 19:12.184 --> 19:15.388 So, it's just one of those things that's natural. 19:15.388 --> 19:17.656 We have an adversarial form of government, right? 19:17.656 --> 19:20.659 - So, one of the, I think you mentioned the budget analyst. 19:20.659 --> 19:24.063 Am I right, that one thing that came up recently is, 19:24.063 --> 19:26.665 that's similar to this is, that there was a surplus. 19:26.665 --> 19:29.035 Good news, a surplus economy, 19:29.035 --> 19:30.836 it was 20, 24 million, I can't quite remember-- 19:30.836 --> 19:32.738 - 22. 19:32.738 --> 19:34.940 - 22, excuse me. 22. 19:34.940 --> 19:36.375 But, it caused a great deal of frustration 19:36.375 --> 19:38.044 for a lot of commissioners, 19:38.044 --> 19:41.047 because, you had cut things, and you had 19:41.047 --> 19:42.348 fought through a budget season, 19:42.348 --> 19:45.051 and then it comes in 20 million dollars ahead. 19:45.051 --> 19:47.353 Is that, and you've talked about wanting 19:47.353 --> 19:48.621 a budget analyst, right, 19:48.621 --> 19:50.122 that works for the commission. 19:50.122 --> 19:51.390 Is that going to move forward, 19:51.390 --> 19:52.958 or is that tied up in the same fight? 19:52.958 --> 19:55.027 - No, well, it kind of is and kind of ain't. 19:55.027 --> 19:56.529 But, let me explain to you. 19:56.529 --> 20:00.299 When they came to us, first time that I've ever seen this, 20:00.299 --> 20:02.868 they came to us in budget season, 20:02.868 --> 20:05.004 said, we've got a six million dollar surplus. 20:05.004 --> 20:07.039 Well, common sense tells me that 20:07.039 --> 20:09.442 if you've got a six million dollar surplus, 20:09.442 --> 20:12.078 then you charged the people too much last year. 20:12.078 --> 20:15.114 So, that's when we started working towards a tax decrease, 20:15.114 --> 20:18.684 which I think is probably one of the most pressing things 20:18.684 --> 20:22.121 to keeping Shleby County vibrant, 20:22.121 --> 20:24.156 and keeping people in this county. 20:24.156 --> 20:27.093 But, what do you think, Heidi? 20:27.093 --> 20:30.796 - You were budget committee chair for many years, 20:30.796 --> 20:32.264 now vice chair. 20:32.264 --> 20:34.867 - Right. So, yeah, I think that that's a real issue, 20:34.867 --> 20:37.436 is with the tax decrease. 20:37.436 --> 20:39.505 Most counties, I've been looking 20:39.505 --> 20:41.607 into best practices of counties, 20:41.607 --> 20:43.676 most counties, the legislative body 20:43.676 --> 20:45.811 has an auditor general, 20:45.811 --> 20:47.880 and also a fiscal adviser, 20:47.880 --> 20:52.218 that works for them, that is a stable staffed office, 20:52.218 --> 20:55.254 that keeps things moving even through 20:55.254 --> 20:57.289 term limited transition. 20:57.289 --> 20:58.858 Remember, this is the first time, 20:58.858 --> 21:00.426 we've only been under term limits 21:00.426 --> 21:01.827 for a short amount of time, 21:01.827 --> 21:03.262 and I'm for term limits. 21:03.262 --> 21:05.531 One of the consequences of term limits, though, 21:05.531 --> 21:08.868 is that you lose that legislative institutional memory, 21:08.868 --> 21:10.269 that's right. 21:10.269 --> 21:12.438 And, so, in order to keep some of those things, 21:12.438 --> 21:14.006 to fill in those holes, 21:14.006 --> 21:17.409 I think the commission has to staff up a little bit 21:17.409 --> 21:20.679 to get good independent advice, 21:20.679 --> 21:22.982 because right now it's all being driven 21:22.982 --> 21:24.483 from the executive branch. 21:24.483 --> 21:27.853 They're hired and fired only by the mayor. 21:27.853 --> 21:29.755 And this isn't personalities, 21:29.755 --> 21:31.690 this is executive versus legislative. 21:31.690 --> 21:33.893 We've got to be a little more independent, 21:33.893 --> 21:35.794 and we're the ones with the fiduciary duty. 21:35.794 --> 21:37.663 - You guys just-- On selling finiancing, 21:37.663 --> 21:40.166 the county commission refinanced, what, 21:40.166 --> 21:41.367 three hundred million dollars. 21:41.367 --> 21:43.202 Is that a scoop and toss kind of thing 21:43.202 --> 21:45.037 that the city got criticized for, 21:45.037 --> 21:47.973 or was that a fiscally sound kind of move 21:47.973 --> 21:49.441 to refinance that? 21:49.441 --> 21:50.676 - Let me answer that one. 21:50.676 --> 21:52.545 We actually weren't given enough information 21:52.545 --> 21:54.446 to really know about it. 21:54.446 --> 21:56.315 And that's, that's really-- 21:56.315 --> 21:59.518 Oh, it's good, we'll give you the short version 21:59.518 --> 22:01.520 is what we're hearing a lot of. 22:01.520 --> 22:04.490 That's what a fiscal advisor would do. 22:04.490 --> 22:06.225 - Because the short answer is that it was refinanced down 22:06.225 --> 22:07.760 to a lower interest rate, that's lower in cost, 22:07.760 --> 22:09.395 which, on the surface, sounds great. 22:09.395 --> 22:11.163 But you still have unanswered questions. 22:11.163 --> 22:13.599 - But, the 2006 bonds that were included in that, 22:13.599 --> 22:16.368 let me make this perfectly clear, 22:16.368 --> 22:20.206 not even one dime had been paid toward the principal 22:20.206 --> 22:22.374 of that 2006 bond. 22:22.374 --> 22:25.010 And I really have a problem with that. 22:25.010 --> 22:28.347 When you haven't paid anything down on that bond, 22:28.347 --> 22:30.883 and you're refinancing already, 22:30.883 --> 22:33.819 because you haven't gained anything. 22:33.819 --> 22:35.020 - Yeah, right. 22:35.020 --> 22:36.188 We've got about four minutes left. Phil. 22:36.188 --> 22:38.224 - Just going back to that for a second, 22:38.224 --> 22:41.660 is there a balloon payment involved, though, further out, 22:41.660 --> 22:45.364 because that was the issue on the city side 22:45.364 --> 22:46.765 with the scoop and toss, 22:46.765 --> 22:49.335 and I didn't hear any mention of a balloon payment-- 22:49.335 --> 22:50.536 - I don't think there is, Bill. 22:50.536 --> 22:52.371 - Fewer years down the road. 22:52.371 --> 22:54.707 - Where does the county's, again, the county's 22:54.707 --> 22:56.542 pension situation? 22:56.542 --> 22:59.311 The county's, I mean, there's been such an emphasis 22:59.311 --> 23:00.746 in the city of Memphis, and other places around the county, 23:00.746 --> 23:04.083 is the county on firm footing in terms of 23:04.083 --> 23:05.784 pension obligations and so on? 23:05.784 --> 23:09.722 - Well, our pension system is pretty well off, 23:09.722 --> 23:12.658 but I'm going to tell you, the big thing 23:12.658 --> 23:14.894 that's hovering over Shelby County 23:14.894 --> 23:18.030 is this 1.2 billion dollar OPEB debt 23:18.030 --> 23:19.498 that the school system has. 23:19.498 --> 23:22.234 - They covered through to the new Shelby County schools, 23:22.234 --> 23:23.669 everything went into that one-- 23:23.669 --> 23:25.938 - Right, and, Commissioner Schaffer 23:25.938 --> 23:27.840 and the rest of the commissioners, 23:27.840 --> 23:30.876 we had Tony Saunders come in, 23:30.876 --> 23:33.312 and Tony Saunders wast he gentleman 23:33.312 --> 23:35.214 that the governor of Michigan 23:35.214 --> 23:39.084 hired and brought in to straighten out Detroit. 23:39.084 --> 23:43.188 He has met with the school systems, 23:43.188 --> 23:46.258 and I think that he's going to work with the school system 23:46.258 --> 23:47.693 to try to get them to-- 23:47.693 --> 23:51.830 And, we're looking into our OPEB in their with it, 23:51.830 --> 23:54.466 because maybe there's some savings there, 23:54.466 --> 23:57.936 if they do the schools and Shelby County's. 23:57.936 --> 24:00.039 So, I'm going to tell you, 24:00.039 --> 24:03.208 that's one of the most important things that's facing us. 24:03.208 --> 24:04.443 - Your thoughts on that? 24:04.443 --> 24:05.611 - Well, I think that that's exactly right, 24:05.611 --> 24:07.346 and OPEB is going to be a bigger-- 24:07.346 --> 24:10.516 And by the way, OPEB is for Other Post-Employment Benefits. 24:10.516 --> 24:12.818 We like to throw around these acronyms. 24:12.818 --> 24:16.322 So, it is going to be very shortly required 24:16.322 --> 24:19.558 that there will be a limited amount of financing. 24:19.558 --> 24:22.361 So, we want to get out in front of that. 24:22.361 --> 24:25.331 There are some discrepancies in the numbers that we've seen 24:25.331 --> 24:28.667 about what our true OPEB liability is, 24:28.667 --> 24:31.870 and the reason I'm looking for an auditor general. 24:31.870 --> 24:33.972 - On the county side or on the school side? 24:33.972 --> 24:37.376 - County side. County side. 24:37.376 --> 24:39.111 And, you know, everyone likes to ride the school system, 24:39.111 --> 24:40.913 I think we need to look at ourselves 24:40.913 --> 24:42.948 as hard as we're looking at the school system. 24:42.948 --> 24:44.616 If we're going to ask the schools about their OPEB, 24:44.616 --> 24:49.088 we have a fiduciary duty to really delve into 24:49.088 --> 24:50.322 our own financing. 24:50.322 --> 24:51.557 We're doing OK. 24:51.557 --> 24:53.092 But, could we be doing better? 24:53.092 --> 24:55.060 Our tax rate is so high 24:55.060 --> 24:57.196 that it is costing businesses right now 24:57.196 --> 24:59.298 33 percent more. 24:59.298 --> 25:00.699 - Right, right, right. 25:00.699 --> 25:02.234 Bill, minute left here. 25:02.234 --> 25:04.503 - It looks like next year, the commission 25:04.503 --> 25:07.906 is going to bring to a head or talk with 25:07.906 --> 25:10.676 the leader of Global Ministries Foundation, 25:10.676 --> 25:15.681 who, I believe, he was supposed to appear this past week 25:15.914 --> 25:18.584 before the committees. 25:18.584 --> 25:23.222 - And he runs a series of housing apartments around town-- 25:23.222 --> 25:26.725 - Right, apartments that involve HUD subsidies. 25:26.725 --> 25:30.662 But, he had representatives there, 25:30.662 --> 25:33.065 but he wasn't there this past-- 25:33.065 --> 25:34.233 - Right. 25:34.233 --> 25:35.367 It was my understanding that he had never 25:35.367 --> 25:37.035 committed to come, 25:37.035 --> 25:39.471 and I did want to just clear that up. 25:39.471 --> 25:41.340 There have been, 25:41.340 --> 25:44.343 you know, this is not an easy situation 25:44.343 --> 25:46.178 when you're talking about housing. 25:46.178 --> 25:48.647 So, it's a hard group of folks to house, 25:48.647 --> 25:50.315 some of them are fourth generation, 25:50.315 --> 25:51.984 being in public housing, 25:51.984 --> 25:54.086 it's very crime infested. 25:54.086 --> 25:56.722 You're not going to solve all the problems. 25:56.722 --> 25:59.258 But I think that one will be a real issue 25:59.258 --> 26:01.226 and will come up soon. 26:01.226 --> 26:02.494 - OK. We'll leave it there. 26:02.494 --> 26:03.429 Sorry to cut you off, we're out of time. 26:03.429 --> 26:04.329 Thank you both for being here. 26:04.329 --> 26:05.230 - Thank y'all for having us. 26:05.230 --> 26:06.031 - Thank you for joining us. 26:06.031 --> 26:08.267 Join us again next week. 26:08.767 --> 26:10.369 - [Voiceover] Yuletide Office Solutions, 26:10.369 --> 26:12.104 locally owned and family operated, 26:12.104 --> 26:13.872 offering office supplies and furniture, 26:13.872 --> 26:16.542 office design services, school supplies, and more. 26:16.542 --> 26:18.377 The Yuletide team proudly supports 26:18.377 --> 26:20.179 the Bartlett area chamber of commerce 26:20.179 --> 26:22.748 and WKNO. 26:23.515 --> 26:27.515 (guitar strum)