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Behind the Headlines
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  Thank you.

- Sheriff Floyd
Bonner on the jail,

juvenile justice,
and more, tonight

on Behind the Headlines.

[dramatic orchestral music]

I'm Eric Barnes,

president and executive
editor of The Daily Memphian,

thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by
Shelby County Sheriff

Floyd Bonner, Jr.
Thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Along with Bill Dries,

reporter with
The Daily Memphian.

- Let's start, you
are newly elected,

in this past fall, so been in
office three, four months.

There's a lot of
conversation right now,

we've done a
number of shows about,

or where we touched on the
question of juvenile justice

and specifically the
juvenile justice center and the

county pondering a
million-three investment,

sort of down payment on a
new juvenile justice center,

towards ultimately I think
about a $25 million project.

Do you think, let's
just start there,

do you think the county
should put money towards a new

juvenile justice center?

- Well as you know, as sheriff,
we run the detention center

there at juvenile court,
and I think the last time the

detention center was added on,

or kind of re-done
was in the '90s.

So you're talking about a
facility that's extremely old,

outdated, we've been talking
about building a new justice or

detention center for the
juveniles now for about,

three, four, five years.
And I think it's come time now

that we really
get serious about it.

We hope that the county
commission will fund it.

As you know right now,
we're talking about,

they're going
through the prelim things,

trying to get the architect,
but I think it's supposed to

cost around $25 million, so.

- And you all,
effectively your office,

the sheriff's office provides
what laymen would think of,

the lay person would think of
as the guards at the detention

center and juvenile
justice, is that correct?

- That's correct,
that's correct.

- And about how
many people are there,

of your staff?

- About 75.
- About 75, ok.

One of the questions is about,
the juvenile justice center has

also been under scrutiny,
there was Federal oversight,

that has ended since President
Trump's administration,

and former Attorney
General Jeff Sessions.

Where did you stand
on whether oversight,

Federal oversight
should continue or end?

- Well I thought it should end.

I mean, we took
over juvenile court,

we the sheriff's office, took
over juvenile court in 2015,

I think when DOJ actually came
into juvenile court was 2012.

So it had been going
on, so when the sheriff,

the previous
sheriff, Sheriff Oldham,

decided that he would handle
the detention for juvenile

court, we came in and we
looked at what DOJ was asking,

and then we did everything.

I mean we were at 94% of the
things that DOJ was asking us

to do, and the other 6% was
because the facility was so old

that we couldn't do
things about the facility.

So it kind of
rendered us helpless

there in that part of it.
- (Eric) Right.

But, I think what we did learn,
we learned a lot of things,

we received a lot of training,

our officers received
a lot of training.

We had a lot of help from
different organizations,

national organizations.

Dr. David Rausch,
who was one of the first

DOJ monitors that
came in at that time.

We've now, we now, the
sheriff's office has hired

Dr. Rausch as a consultant
because we want to continue

down the right path.
We take it very seriously

and we're going
to keep moving forward.

- Before I go to Bill,
there was an incident

I believe last week, with...

some kind of incident that
resulted in 11 juveniles being

moved after some sort of, I
would frame it as an outburst,

but I'll let you
frame it as what it was,

there was some damage done in
the juvenile detention center,

11 youths were
moved to 201 Poplar,

the adult jail,
and two of your,

I think it was two
of your offiers,

were suspended in
some form or fashion.

Tell me what
happened last week.

- Well last week we had a
disturbance down at juvenile

court, something that never
occurred since we'd been there.

I was asked that the other day,
I've never known it to happen,

but we had a
disturbance down there.

About 14, 15 youth were
involved in that disturbance.

No officers were hurt.

We had two juveniles that had
non-life-threatening injuries,

we took eleven of
them down to 201.

Now, what many people don't
know is that we've housed

juveniles at 201
before, in the past,

we do have an area there that
we can put them in that meets

the sight-and-sound
requirements that the DOJ

requires, so right now
we've moved them down there,

and as you said, it
was about $3,000,

$3,500-$5,000 worth of damage,
there was some glass breakage,

a TV was broken.

And we're repairing
that, as a matter of fact,

everything, juvenile
court is back up and running.

Until we get the glass,
some of the windows repaired,

we expect to move the juveniles
back to the facility on Friday

as a matter of fact.

- But, and I misquoted,
was it five officers

that were suspended?

- It was five, yes.
- Suspended for what reason?

- They were
relieved of duty with pay.

- And are they still?

- And they still are, right
now it's under investigation.

We're looking into some
things that happend down there.

Failures that we think
that occurred right now,

so it's still kind of
under investigation,

we're looking into
what caused the fight,

what was going on, what
the officers were doing,

just the whole
entire situation.

- You said two
juveniles were injured,

taken to hospital, or?

- They were seen by the medical
staff there at juvenile court.

- Juveniles
injuring each other,

or injured by
sheriff's deputies?

- Each other, yes sir.

- And can you give any more,
shine any more light on why

those officers were suspended?

- No, we're not going to
talk about it right now,

we're, again we're
looking into it,

and we want to get
to the bottom of it.

- Will that come out though,
will there be a full report of

what happened once that
investigation is complete?

- There will when
the case is completed,

when it's done, you
know, it will be there.

- Ok. Bill.

- Sheriff, you talked about the
sight-and-sound requirement,

and a lot of folks
might not understand that,

but you can't just take a group
of juveniles and put them in

any empty space in the jail,
there are some pretty strict

requirements, and
sight-and-sound means they

can't be within sight, or
within sound of your adult

population in that jail, right?

- That's right, yes sir. Yeah.

- So with a new detention
center that the county

commission is considering, what
would you be able to do there,

that you're not able to do at
the current detention center,

because you and Mayor Harris
has also talked about this.

You want to make it clear that
this detention center where

children stay for, I
think an average of 25 days,

that you don't want
them just sitting there

in some secure area.

- Well one of the things we
found out since we've been

operating the detention center,
is the busier we keep them,

the less trouble
that they get into,

the less trouble our
officers have with them.

So we want to be able to keep
these kids in classes for more

than four hours a day.

In schools at
least six hours a day.

We'd like to see
smaller housing units,

right now, the way, I don't
know if you've ever been down

there to visit juvenile court,
but the housing units are set

up, not appropriately,
we would like to see pods,

if you will.

Where the housing units where
the officers have more control.

We don't have to use as many
officers doing some of the

things that we do with
the kids down there.

So it's an opportunity for us
to have a better educational

program, be able to
get volunteers in, mentors.

A lot of these kids, I
say this all the time.

No kid is born as a
bad child, you know.

These kids are born
into bad circumstances.

And a lot of times these kids
just don't know any other way.

And so it's about
bringing positive influence

in to the court.

To the detention center,
and exposing them

to positive people.

- Mmhmm. How much input
does the sheriff as an office

have in terms of how many
juveniles wind up in detention.

That's a decision that's made
by other parts of the system,

as I understand it.
- It is right now.

We take them as they come.

You know, Judge Michael
and the courts,

they hear all the cases, I
don't know if you know or not,

but we have approximately 30
juveniles out at jail-lease

that have been adjudicated.

In other words they're
going to be tried as adults,

and as they turn 18
they move down to 201.

But they are also juveniles,
even though they are being

charged with adult crimes,
they're still juveniles and it

has to meet the
sight-and-sound requirements.

So we have space out at

jail-lease that we
keep those juveniles at.

- Jail-lease, and then
I'll go back to Bill,

is more specifically, I
thought it was built for women.

- It was built for women, yes.

- And you've got,
about how many,

so the downtown
jail is primarily men?

- Yes, yes.

- I think that you're talking
about with the adult population.

- Yes sir.
- But you've got space for 30,

because you've outgrown the

juvenile justice, the space at
the juvenile justice center?

Is that why you've had
to put them out there,

or are they more
or less violent,

what's the criteria for
moving them out to jail-lease?

- Well, actually,
outgrown the space.

I mean when you look at
juvenile court when you're

trying to separate those kids,
we didn't have the space down

at 201 Poplar for
that many kids.

And we only had space for
the nine that we had down,

with this incident
that occurred last week,

so, we had to make
other arrangments,

and kind of re-tool
ourselves, if you will,

and we moved those
kids out at jail-lease,

out there that's getting
ready to be adjudicated,

and as they turn 18
they move to 201,

but going back to Bill,
your original question was,

is that, you know it's
kind of up to the courts.

We have a call ahead program,
we're doing all we can do to

keep these kids, keep the
numbers down at juvenile court

as we can.

Judge Michael, his staff
down at juvenile court,

they do a tremendous job
trying to keep these kids out,

getting them back
to their parents,

getting them back in society.

I go usually, it's the
last Tuesday of the month,

will go down to juvenile court
and speak on the cease fire to

kids that have been involved,

or have gun crimes
for the first time.

And you go down
there, and we talk,

Director Rawlings
has been there,

I've been there.

And you're
talking to these kids,

trying to get them to
understand that carrying a gun

is so dangerous.

So, so violent, it
can be so violent.

So these kids are
first time gun offenders,

and we're, the ladies down
there just do a tremendous job,

and so we're trying to
do all we can do to keep

them out of the system.

- Mmhmm. And so your contact
with them, I mean if you look

at the offenses, if you
look at what happened,

that many times, that got these
children in juvenile court,

it can be pretty scary.

If you don't ever
talk to these children,

and realize that
they are children,

despite the
serious nature of this,

if you never have
that contact with them,

you might think,
this is really serious,

let's just lock them up
and throw away the key.

What do you say to people who
look at the offenses and think,

and have that kind of reaction?

- And I understand that because
the kids down at juvenile

court, these kids are not
down there for truancy.

They're down there for
some serious crimes.

Judge Michael and the
courts only keep kids that have

committed some
pretty serious crimes.

But again, they're children.

And you have to look at the
things that they were exposed

to, growing up, as children.

And we were all
kids once upon a time.

We didn't always make
the right decisions.

I was fortunate, you know, I
grew up in a home with a mother

and a father, and I
had aunts and uncles,

and grandmas,
you know that kind of

kept an eye on us
and everything.

We had structure.

Structure in our
lives, if you will.

And a lot of these
kids don't have that.

And so when you talk to
them, and you really get down,

when you really
drill down with them,

you see that these kids
have never had any

structure in their lives.

Some of these kids are even
homeless down at juvenile

court, so, who's
there to teach them,

who's there to show them?

And until we as a
society, you know,

I often say the
African proverb,

"It takes a village
to raise a child."

So some of these kids, we
can't just throw them away,

they're going to be
here in the community.

- A couple of questions then
we'll move onto other things,

staying on juvenile
justice for a moment,

the number of
the current facility

can house how many kids?

- I think our current
facility will house 120.

- Is that an ideal number,
or is that what it can

possibly do?
- Oh no.

- So then the ideal
number is more like?

- I wish the ideal
number was zero.

- (Eric)
Yeah, right, fair enough.

- But, we have been as
low as, back in December,

November-December, we've
been as low as like 49 or so.

- And the ratio of
your staff, the guards,

the deputies to the
number of kids should be what?

- Well I think DCS wants you
to be at an eight to one ratio.

- Are you able to do that?

- Well, right now, the
night of the incident,

we had 92 kids, 4 were
females, 88 were males.

That night we had
14 officers working,

that night, so.

- Last question, is it not, you
talked about the desire to get

these kids back on track.

Despite very, you know,
horrible things they may have

done, or at least
are accused of doing.

Is it not possible to do some
of the mentoring and education

in the current facility?

Because part of the debate,
it seems like at the county

commission, Mayor
Harris, others,

about whether to invest
in this new facility,

it's almost, it's a variation
on the chicken-and-egg.

Some folks are saying,
and in part you are saying,

we need this new facility
to do these other things,

like more education
and more mentoring.

Other people are saying well
go ahead and start it now,

prove that you are
sincere about that,

and then we'll fund it.

Why not, why can you
not do more education,

more mentoring, in
the current facility?

- Well, if you come down and
look at the current facility,

the roof leaks,
you know education,

you have to be
in an environment that's

conducive to learning.

And you, with all the
distractions and things that

goes on down there, it's
quite noisy sometimes,

but the roof leaks, and
it's just not an area that's

conducive for
learning right now.

- Let's move onto another thing
that's been in the headlines,

we've talked a little
bit about it on the show,

which is immigration.

And the role of the county,
and specifically your office in

enforcing detentions, or raids
by Immigration and Custom...

- (Bill)
Enforcement. ICE.

- Enforcement, thank you.
ICE.

And then a state law that was
passed and went into effect on

January first that put more
onus on local counties to

enforce immigration laws, and
then the Shelby County Attorney

and Mayor Harris said,
"No, we're not doing that."

- (Sheriff Bonner)
Right.

- What is your understanding
of your role when it comes to

illegal immigration?

- Well, first of all, I applaud
the County Mayor's office for,

we asked for an opinion,
and they gave us an opinion

on the new law.

Let me explain the process.
- (Eric) Please.

- Anyone that
comes into our jail,

we ask them,
"Where were you born?"

Now, if you tell us that you
were born anywhere outside of

the United States,
then we contact ICE, ok.

We contact them,
we let them know,

hey, Eric's here at 201,
he says he was born

in Paris, France. Ok.

Now, it's up to the ICE Agent
to decide if he wants to come

down and talk to you or...

- Do you check
for documentation?

- No.

- Do you ask if they
are an illegal immigrant?

- No. We do not.

- Are you required by
law to ask that question?

- No. We're required by law
to ask them are they,

where they were born.
What's their birth place.

- You are required by law.
State law?

- Yes. State law.

That's a state law to ask
them where were you born.

What's your origin nation.

- Sorry, just because I do
think this is worth talking

about, because there's so
much yelling about immigration,

and this really is the kind
of point in which some of the

interactions between law
enforcement and immigrants

happen, so bear with me.

Are you required by law to then
report to the ICE officers that

this person was born
outside the United States.

- Yes.
- You are. By State law.

- Yes. By state law.

- And that's the new
law that just passed.

- That's not the new law.
- That's been existing law.

- That's been
existing for years.

- The new law required you,
tried to require you

to do what then?

- To hold.
- To hold.

In that circumstance where
you ask and this person says

they're from Paris, France,
the new law was going to say,

well you've got
to hold onto them.

- Well what we
would do in that case,

is we would call ICE,
ICE would say yeah,

I think we are
interested in Eric,

so would you hang
onto him for 48 hours?

Now, if you made your bond, ICE
would still want us to hold you

for an additional 48 hours.

And that's where we kind of...

- That's where you said no.
- We said no.

And we asked for
the County opinion,

because the United States
Constitution says that you

can't hold anyone in a
jail without probable cause,

without a warrant,
and ICE has neither.

They don't have a warrant, it's
just a request. So--

- ICE raids, do you all
assist with raids by ICE?

- No sir.
- You do not.

- No sir, we do not.

- Because in some areas, I
don't know about Tennessee,

some areas of the country,
local law enforcement does

participate in these raids.

- And I think there are some
areas in Tennessee that will

assist ICE on raids, but the
Shelby County Sheriff's Office,

nor the Memphis
Police Department,

we don't assist.
- And that's a policy decision

you've made--
- Yes sir.

- and continue I
guess in your, and why?

- Well, you have to consider,
we're trying to solve crime,

we're trying to build
bridges in the community,

so if we go into the community,
our detectives go into the

community trying
to solve a murder,

for instance,
are the immigrants,

or is that population
going to talk to us,

or do they think we're
there on an ICE raid,

you know, so it's just, it's so
difficult for us to solve these

crimes, and we're
trying to build bridges,

we're not trying
to tear them down.

I have no problem
with ICE, I mean ICE...

you know, ICE is ICE,
they do what they do.

But I think that if the Federal
Government would like to see

that as a law, then they
should pass something.

You notice nothing
has ever come out of Washington

where it was a law.

It's all just been requests.

- You, again, we noted
newly-elected sheriff,

but you've been involved
with law enforcement for...

a long time.

- Thirty eight years
I've been in the Shelby County

- 38.
- Sheriff's Office.

- Do you see a, I mean right
now in the national debate

there are folks,
President Trump included,

who imply or cite that there's
an almost disproportionate

amount of crime that comes
from illegal immigrants.

Is that your experience?

Do you see a disproportionate,
or a high rate of crime locally

among illegal immigrants?

- No. No we don't see it.

I know, I've heard
the President say that,

but we don't see it
here in Shelby County, no sir.

- Five minutes left.
Bill.

- Alright, and Sheriff,
you talked about what the

sheriff's department has to do,
it seems to me as if you and

Director Rawlings, who has
made similar statements,

that your position is
whatever the laws are regarding

immigration, that's fine, but
we have priorities here that

our law enforcement
agencies have to do,

and our resources
have to go toward that.

Is that an
accurate assessment of?

- That is Bill, I
mean very much so.

I wish I had
another 500 deputies,

you know, to where I
could do more things,

but our resources now, we're a
full-service law enforcement

agency, our resources are
stretched to the limits now.

You know we have over 30,000
warrants on just citizens of

Shelby County that our fugitive
division is out 7 days a week,

24 hours a day out
looking for people,

and so, I mean to task us
with that without any Federal

funding, without any, really
any guidance from the Federal

Government, and you're asking
us to what I think is probably,

they will, the constitution
will not even allow us to do

48 hour holds anymore.

For police investigation,
but yet you want me to take an

immigrant because an
ICE agent says hold him,

I might be interested in him.

And that's another thing, that
ICE agent may or may not come

and get that person.

But you're asking me to
hold him for 48 hours,

just till you decide if you
want to come get him or not.

- And if the agents do
come to talk to that person,

they're not there
on a probable cause basis--

- No they're not.

- Because they have met some
set of standard for holding

someone, they're there in
essence to find out if there is

an issue that they
might be interested in.

- That's correct, and even the,
the request is not even signed

by a judge.

I mean the request is signed
by a supervisor in the office,

so I just think that there's
a lot of legal questions and

things that need
to be cleaned up,

if you will.

If you want the
local agencies to do it,

I'm not trying to get
Shelby County sued,

or the taxpayers to have to pay
out some huge lawsuit because

we'd illegally held someone.

I think it will
wash out eventually.

The Attorneys
General, I've talked to,

well, when Mr. Sessions
was the Attorney General,

and even Mr. Whitaker,
who now is no longer,

they visited Memphis when
Mr. Whitaker was here.

He told us in a group
setting of West Tennessee law

enforcement parties,
he realized that we were not

going out looking
for immigrants,

and he said that he
was ok with it, so.

- Whitaker being the
Acting Attorney General--

- He was the
acting Attorney General, yes.

- We have a minute
and a half left--

- Sure.
- I have about 50 questions--

- [chuckles] Well you'll
have to invite me back.

- Yeah, we would
love to have you back,

because this has been a
really good conversation.

The other, you
talk about the jail,

what is the jail population
give-or-take right now,

and are you concerned about the
size of the jail population.

201 Poplar,
let's focus on that,

what people think of as 'the
jail' even though there are

these other facilities.

And there have been times
when it's gotten so big that

there are problems
that come from having

too many people in that.

- Sure, we're not going to call
it the jail, we're going to call

it the Walter Bailey Criminal
Justice Complex [chuckles]--

- (Eric)
Fair enough, fair enough.

- Yes, we're usually
housing about 26-2700 inmates.

Now, of course we're
concerned about the population,

I have a jail
population manager,

we're doing all we...

we receive grants from
different organizations,

foundations, trying to figure
out a way how to get people

out of jail.

Another thing that
we haven't touched on is

the mental health issue.

We have a mental health
crisis here in Shelby County,

and all across the
nation, we're not,

Shelby County is not
exclusive to that.

- Do you have the resources you
need, with just 10 seconds left,

for mental health
and that population?

- No. I don't.

I don't have the beds, I don't
have any places to take these

people that should not be in
the Walter Bailey Criminal

Justice Complex.

- Alright, again, we
will have you back,

because the 30,000
warrants you mentioned,

there's so many things
that I wasn't able to get to,

but thank you for
being here--

- Sure, thank you for having me.

- and thank you Bill, and
thank you for joining us,

join us again, next week.

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