- Production funding
for behind the headlines

is made possible in part by
the WKNO production fund,

the WKNO endowment fund.

And by viewers like you, thank
you.

- How Shelby County schools will
reopen

tonight, on behind the
headlines.

[upbeat music]

I'm Eric Barnes with the Daily
Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

Today is the third in a series
of shows we've been doing

on the challenges of reopening
schools,

specifically the Shelby County
schools.

But in the past few weeks we've
talked to an epidemiologist

about social emotional risks of
reopening

as well as the COVID risks,
obviously of reopening.

We've talked to a number of
researchers

who've looked at academic
studies around the country

and even around the world about

best practices for reopening
and the risks of learning loss.

We had a head of the Freedom
Prep Charter School Network,

five charter schools
covering pre-K through 12

who had opened hybrid
had closed back down.

All those shows are available on
wkno.org

or you can go even go to YouTube

and search for behind the
headlines.

Today, I'm very pleased to be
joined by

the chair of the Shelby
County school board,

Miska Clay Bibs.

Miska, thank you for being here.

- Hi Eric, thank you for having
me.

- And I'm also joined by Bill
Dries,

reporter with The Daily
Memphian.

As we start this, you know

this last few shows we've
done focused on this

and in the fall we had
superintendent Joris Ray on,

I think twice in the fall
talking about how, excuse me

how virtual learning was going.

We had superintendents from
all, I believe all of the,

the suburban schools have been
on.

I mean, if I've learned anything

it's a simple thing, which is,
this is not a simple issue.

And so nothing I ask today
or say today is in any way

meant to reflect that
there are easy answers

and simple answers to this
incredibly complicated problem.

As in the, over the course of
this month

since we started these
shows you all have announced

you're going to reopen
the Shelby County schools

pre-K through fifth,
will open on March 1st

and then the sixth through
12th graders on March eight.

My first question is, I mean

you've been under intense
pressure from the state,

from local legislators, from the
governor.

Some even even talking
about withholding funding

to Shelby County schools,
if they did not reopen

and Shelby County schools
is the last system

not to have reopened in an
optional or even hybrid way.

Nashville Metro schools being
the,

or Metro Davidson schools being
the other

that chose to be up in
a couple of weeks ago.

So the real question is,
are you reopening by choice

or simply because the
pressure got to be too great.

- In that very question,
there's a combination.

I think we are definitely,

at this point are opening by
choice.

There is a borderline and
you have to get to a majority

for any decision to move
forward.

So I think, you know

that is me letting you know
that there's a majority

of the board members who have
said, okay now is a good time.

You know, when we make guiding
decisions and, you know

have guiding conversations
with superintendent Ray,

that is exactly, you know

what we think about as we move
forward.

And the reality of it is there's
still,

there was absolutely some
pressure from the state

around what this looks like.

So it's a combination.

You know, again

I'm glad you prefaced
this whole conversation

about there is no easy
answer because there's not.

I think, you know, one of
the reasons why we stayed

closed as long as we had is
because

we just have a different
demographic,

of families that we're serving

and community looks different.

So for us, we, it was make
making sure we maintain

that our families were safe
and our teachers were safe.

So we are where we are today.

And I think based upon the
fact that people, I think,

also, this is a community issue.

You know, we need the
community to understand

that they must take, you know,
things say safely as well

and the numbers are going down.

They're kind of consistent right
now

which is a great thing.

So I hope they continue to stay
that way.

- Let me ask you just
some logistical questions

and then we'll bring Bill Dries
in,

this is optional for parents.

- It is optional.

- Yes, the teachers will,
who've been doing virtual school

from maybe from their homes.

All teachers will be back in the
building

whether they're teaching
in-person class

or they're doing virtual
school, do I have that correct?

- That is correct.

- And then the folks who
have been pressuring you

to reopen, other school systems
as well,

but obviously just talking
about Shelby County schools,

there are number of things they
point to.

One of the main ones
is the CDC guidelines,

which wrapped up, you know,

went to a number of studies
have been done that so far.

And with a fair number of
school systems having opened

some staying open the whole
time,

the schools have not been the
source

of a dramatically large amount
of spread and infection.

There are many caveats on that.

That there was enough
distancing,

there were masks, there
were proper ventilation.

Do you feel like the CDC
guidelines are,

you're gonna be able to meet
those

within Shelby County schools

and thus this is safe to do.

- So, you know, first, let
me just say great question.

'Cause I know people are
bringing it up and, you know

trying to use that force
around as a guiding principle.

The reality of it is though the
guidelines

and I think oftentimes
guidelines are made

not necessarily with who we are
in mind.

You know, we are,

Well, I would say this
Shelby County schools

is the center of community.

I think a lot of where we are is
happened

because we have maintained
and been vigilant around

keeping families safe at home.

So that's one thing it's
also community aspect to this

because now, you know

families are going back into
buildings, it will shift.

The reality of it is
when you have guidelines,

my question would be,
because we are actually

the number two employer in the
city

and number three in the whole
state

I mean I have those reversed.

But the reality of is, so you're
saying

that the center of community

now is going back into the
building.

So we have to be extra cautious
around what that looks like.

So that's why I often question
around or make the statement

that those are guidelines
and guiding principles.

And we're going to do everything
we can do to meet that.

I think families who have
decided to go in

and that number is about 31, 32%

and the rest are staying home.

So in that reality, there
should not be a problem.

The, well, some school,

last question before I go to
Bill,

will some schools maybe
because of ventilation

or just their physical layout,

the physical, you know

that you won't be able
to get enough distancing,

will, some schools may be not
open,

or will all of them be open?

Well, I mean, the school itself
is only

is only, it's based upon
who's deciding to go in.

So let's keep that as the number
one thing

because there are some schools
that

a whole school community may
decide,

we're not going into the
building.

Let's be realistic about that.

When you have over 75%
of your family saying,

they do not want to go
back into a building.

There may be some schools

that still may have adults
only in the building.

Let me bring in Bill Dries.

And we were doing a
first, 10-and-a-half years

we've been doing this show

and Bill is joining us by phone

because it's still feels like
2020 today.

But Bill, thanks for being here
by phone

and go ahead with that, Miska
Clay Bibs,

the chair of the Shelby
County school board.

- Thank you, Eric

and sorry for the
inconvenience this morning

as we record this.

Chairwoman, let me ask you
about where parents are on this

and you cited the figure of 31
to 32%

choosing to go back to in-person
classes.

I think sometimes we get the
impression

that parents are all of one mind
on this.

Give me an idea of what you
hear from parents about this.

- Let me tell you in the
community that I represent,

which is you know, parts of
Hickory Ridge,

Hickory Hill community,
parts of South East Memphis,

parts of white Haven,

parts of South Memphis
in the airport corridor.

They've been very clear with me

that they are not going
back into the building.

You know, they are
overwhelmingly stating

that that is something
that they are, you know,

concerned with and they wanna
make sure that they stay safe.

You know, and I, and
I'm saying overwhelming

because you know, there
may be some families within

you know, my district can say
yes,

but the majority of them
that have reached out to me

have been very clear that they
are not.

You know, I think when
you still have about,

when you have over 70% with
the last time we did a survey

and we are giving them another
opportunity

to change the choice
right now, as we speak

before March 1st hits,

the numbers were over 70% saying
no and the rest saying yes.

So I think what is happening
is in this conversation

people are forgetting that
the families who are saying no

had been very vigilant about
no, they're not ready yet.

- And when was the previous
survey that you did

where you asked parents
to indicate their choice?

- It was done like around mid
winter

because originally when we had,

the thinking was we
were saying in February,

because it was right
before the holiday break

around that time.

And I think because we
were really being hopeful

that vaccines would be available
earlier.

And that has been a large
part of the conversation

in now that vaccines are
now becoming more available

which for me was something
that I really wanted to have

as a resource for teachers

and for families before
making that decision.

- Do you know

do you have verifiable
figures at this point

on what the learning loss might
be

from the time that we've been
away from in-person classes,

because as you know, there's
a lot of discussion about that

and there are even some numbers
that are being thrown around

about what the learning
loss might look like.

- Yeah, you know, I would say
this,

we did a committee meeting about

a couple months ago on learning
loss.

And it was just really showing

that the learning loss is not
any greater

than what it would have been
had we been in the building.

You know, I can definitely
refer you to those numbers

from our chief academic
officer Dr. Antonio Bert,

but he was, we use mastery
connect,

is how we capture information.

And within that, it was showing
that

part of it was some of our, you
know,

our early learning
students, like our pre-K

through second graders, were
actually

a little bit ahead of
schedule and just right on par

because of the family
involvement that they're
getting.

But the reality of it is the
numbers are not as skewed

as what people are using around

what learning loss looks like
for us.

Because again, I think the
disconnect

that people have had
with Shelby in particular

around this conversation,
is teachers are teaching.

Teachers are really showing up.

I visited virtual classrooms
several times in my district

and they are really showing
up and I have to applaud them

for all of the hard
work that they're doing.

- I know that recently you were
able

to get some vaccinations for
teachers.

It is, is your goal here to
get what vaccinations you can

for teachers prior to the,

this phased in reopening
for in-person classes?

- Absolutely, I think, you know,

and I'm talking from my
personal perspective,

you know, again I always
maintain we're a board of nine

and, you know there means
nine different opinions.

But my personal opinion was
the fact that I realized

that vaccines really
needs to be a resource

as we ask teachers to come into
buildings.

So I'm excited that there
has been a bigger push

around making sure that that's
available.

Unfortunately, one of those days
was

right in the middle of a snow
storm

that happened earlier this week

but we're also just heard
recently that they are

trying to push more vaccines to
us.

So hopefully that will get going
faster.

And, you know, the
County commission also is

they're pushing on their side

to make sure vaccines
become more available.

- And before I send you back to
Eric,

in that regard, is the
school system involved

in talks with the state

about moving teachers up in the
line

so to speak for vaccinations?

- We absolutely have had that
conversation several times,

we did not get an answer.

So we're thankful for those
who've decided

to help us advocate.

- Was, a quick thing on
vaccinations.

There was a little bit of
Dr. Joris Ray superintendent

got a vaccine this past
week when there was suddenly

an, as has happened in
many, many cases around the,

the city and County, suddenly
vaccine is available,

they don't want it to go to
waste

and, you know, shot them out

he was able to get a vaccine.

Some people pushed back
that wasn't appropriate.

He said that, "Look, I'm
modeling good behavior.

We do have some hesitancy among
teachers.

It's been true across the board.

All kinds of professions where
there's hesitancy to get it."

Was it appropriate for
Dr. Ray to get a shot?

- Absolutely, I mean, when
I say it was appropriate

because he really, if buildings
are open,

he's gonna be in the building.

Now, one of the things that I,

most of my school visits
that I've done with him

have been all in person.

So that's how I know what's
happening inside those buildings

in my district, had been with
him.

Then my virtual visits of
course had been aligned.

But the reality of it is, when
I choose to go in a building

most of those times I'm going
with him.

So he is absolutely in and
out, in and out of buildings

on the regular.

So if he's asking teachers to go
back

that means he's showing up
in the building as well.

- Do you, on that issue of
hesitancy

or resistance to getting the
vaccine,

do you, have you all surveyed
teachers

and staff on that front?

Do you have any sense if
it is widespread resistance

or is it a small number?

- I think early on, they did
a survey asking teachers about

who would be interested
in taking the vaccine.

And I don't wanna misquote the
number

but it was probably around 40%
who went ahead and said yes

that they would, and this
was way before we even know

when the vaccine was gonna be
available.

- Got you, got you.

Which is a lifetime ago.

On this issue of learning loss,

the other concern folks
have, people have had

and have brought up and I've
talked to educators about this

is kids who are just
sort of have disappeared

or are only erratic in
logging into virtual school.

That is obviously, even
one kid is very concerning

but some have talked about
very widespread issues

about that, of kids who are
just kind of not logging in

not getting on their zoom
calls, the classrooms.

Do you know what those numbers
are

and what all can you
do about it right now?

- I don't know what those
numbers are

but I will say this is an
opportunity

because we are pushing them.

These are the same questions.

You know, Eric, thank you for
asking.

These are the same
questions that we as a board

ask our administration around

what are we gonna do about it?

And they have a strong family
community engagement plan

as well as a strong academic
plan

in order to be able to meet
the needs of those families.

Because the reality of it is,

I think as I said in a
different interview is that

none of this is normal.

And we're trying to put normal,
make this a normal situation

with a normal fix.

So it's gonna take actually
extra effort.

It's gonna take extra input from
families.

It's gonna take extra
input for all involved

in order for us to make sure
that we,

you know, feel all of the gaps.

And this is the opportunity.

You know, I don't look
at things in a negative.

I always see an opportunity for
growth.

So this is an opportunity for
growth

for our family and community
engagement,

as well as some of our
truancy team to work together

in collaboration around what it
looks like

to connect with families.

- The, we talk about learning
loss

and you were talking about, you
know,

not as bad as the numbers and

that people are throwing around.

But do you think that there will
be

at some point we will
get past this, right?

I mean, at some point.

Will there be a need at that
point

to address the kids
who have fallen behind,

the kids who haven't
been able or have chosen

or just for whatever reason
have not been able to log in

and participate in virtual
school.

People have talked about, and
the state has talked about

summer camps or summer school.

There's potential of tutoring.

What are your plans for those
kids who have fallen behind

somewhat or dramatically
to get them caught back up?

- Great question, Eric.

And I'm just gonna start
off with saying what

I hope that this same level
of advocacy and concern

is will happen beyond this
pandemic.

In Shelby County schools

we've been working really hard
just in general making sure

we offer opportunities for
students during the summer

to be able to catch them up.

You know, we have our
superintendents learning Academy

that has been happening
for the past several years

that we make available
to all students who,

whose families shoots for them
to attend.

Our summer school, you
know, options are robust.

We make sure that we have them
connected.

We also have fall in
spring learning Academy

so this is not new for us.

So I think that's the aspect of
it.

I wanna just start off by saying

the work that we're
doing is very consistent.

Again, I hope that the
same people who are pushing

for advocating for quote,
unquote learning loss

and summer programming, keep
it up way beyond the pandemic

because this is the work
Shelby County schools

has been doing for quite some
time.

And this just means we're
revving it up.

These are the same things
we will consistently do.

These are the same things

that we wanna make sure are
available, but more importantly,

we wanna make sure

for those who are not familiar
with it

are familiar with it and
make sure that they sign up.

- One more question
before I go back to Bill.

And that is one of the
other, in the series of shows

that we've done lately,
and I've seen it elsewhere

and heard it elsewhere,

that people point to for
the the need to reopen

is the social-emotional
aspect of kids being isolated,

of kids, you know, just, just,
I mean, depression and I mean

just terrible stats on suicidal
thoughts.

And we talked to an expert
about that last week.

These are national kind of
stats.

Some kids aren't doing
well with this, right?

They don't get to play, they
don't get to see friends,

they don't have socialization.

How much does that weigh
on you as the board chair

and as a board, as a
school system, as a whole?

I think it weighs on us heavily
period.

You know, we take our SEL
programming very important.

Even before the pandemic, we
always,

let me not say we always,
there was a group of us

that really pushed the thought
around

beefing up what our SEL
programming looked like.

And then the pandemic hit.

Luckily we had already decided

to make some investments in
that.

So for those who are choosing

to come back into the building,

they will now have access to
that.

And then even when the
pandemic first started

we made sure that we had
opportunities for connection

around mental health that
were really important

and it is something.

But I think the other aspect
is like moving it, you know

out broader is that this
is happening to everyone.

It's not just the students.

I think, you know, it's
important

for us to understand the fact
that

this is happening across the
nation.

And it's also happening to
adults.

As I mentioned to someone
in another interview

I have literally been at
my desk and doing, you know

phone calls and working from my
desk

since March 15th of last year.

So there's, you know, I, you
know

adults are not having
the same interaction.

My son is a first
semester college student.

He is doing, you know,
college courses online.

And we're having that
conversation

around how this looks
so different for them.

So a lot of people are
being hit across, you know

a lot of, you know, different
communities.

The reality of it is,
it's gonna take all of us

hands on deck to make sure
that this looks different.

And it's also saying,
pulling a community with it.

You know, it's not just them
being in the school building,

it's also whoever else it is
that they come in contact with

supporting them through it as
well.

- Let me bring Bill back in by
phone.

- All right.

And, you know, talking
about just literal examples

I'm gonna be the guy to ask
about the digital divide

here again too after
experiencing
a bit of it this morning.

But, anyway, I think we all
knew that the digital divide

was an issue in our community

before COVID-19 ever reared it's
head.

So what do you think we know

about the state of that
digital divide in Memphis

that maybe we didn't know or
what have we found out about it

that has confirmed

some of the things we
thought about it before?

- Great question Bill.

I think because we were
one of the first districts

in the nation to be able
to go one-to-one, you know,

what we see is that it
is definitely some more

growth opportunities regarding
connection,

not about, you know not
about having the device,

not about having an access to
hotspot

because we did all of those
things.

But the reality of it is
as a, you know, community

when I talk about, think about

like both governments
working together to find out

how to have a better just
logistically,

a better system around, you know

whether it's fiber optics
or whether it's towers

whatever it is that
needs to happen, Rodman

whatever it is that needs to
happen.

I'm not a techie in that sense

so I'm just throwing terms out
there

but whatever it is that needs to
happen

in order for us to have
better connectivity

this past year has shown us

that there's still some
work that needs to be done.

Because there is definitely
some,

a different round of
connection that happens

kind of in the North
Haven, Woodstock Bolton,

Vegeta community and then where
I am

in South East Memphis community
you know,

we're pretty stable

but here lately it gets kind of
sketchy.

So then, you know,

then I hear from families
who own the South Memphis

and the white Haven side of
my community that represents,

so it's different everywhere.

So this is an opportunity I
think

for government to come together
for a better infrastructure.

- All right.

And in the special session
of the legislature,

when these bills were
passed on summer school

and afterschool programs
to help catch up students,

was there enough state
funding included in that

to get the job done here in our
city?

- Well, you know, I think,

to my point that I was
saying to Eric earlier

the reality of it is
we've been making it work.

So any additional funds that we
get

is definitely very helpful.

We have realized a long time ago

that those were the
programs that we needed

in order to continue to
push our students forward.

So for us, it wasn't a
brand new conversation.

Again, as I mentioned before,

I hope some of those same
advocates who are pushing for

that additional funding,
continue to do it

past the pandemic.

- Right, and the final point,

also what came up in the
legislature

was this whole discussion about

what do you do with a student
who is in the third grade,

who is not at reading level?

And I know the school
board over many years

has had discussions periodically

about the idea of retaining a
third grader

until they are at reading
level or until they meet

or show some kind of
progress realistically,

toward that goal.

Where do you think the school
board is

in that discussion that
that's come up again now?

- You know, it was interesting

that it did come up at the state
level.

And as you mentioned, we
have been talking about it

for quite some time, which
we did our, you know,

third grade policy is around it.

And, you know, definitely
have those key factors

that start from pre-K
on up to second grade

that you have to hit in order
for you

to be promoted to the third
grade.

I think now as a board

it is just resurfacing the
conversation

and making sure that we're tight
on it

and making sure that we also,

because we've been through the
pandemic

and this is where I will
say where extra supports

need to happen, is making
sure we do those extra things

before we just say, someone
hasn't hit the market

that we do those extras

before we decide on not
promoting them.

- How much, with just a
few minutes left here,

you know, the, the teachers
unions have been pretty adamant

about not going back.

People throw around the notion
that

a big chunk of teachers would
retire

if they were forced to go
back when it wasn't safe.

How much does pressure
from the teacher unions

come into play in your thinking?

- I will say this,

you know, I, Eric, when you
finish

you'll know how many
board members we have.

I am one of nine.
[both laugh]

I'm gonna always make that win,
you know,

and say I'm one of nine.

And for me, I hear teachers.

I understand, you know
what they're saying,

but as a board, you have to get
to five

on any decision that's being
made.

So I think this is an
opportunity for us to, you know

be real clear on what it is
and be supportive of Dr. Ray

in understanding that
what additional supports

we can give to teachers.

I don't know the numbers.

I'd be honest and say,
I've heard from one union

and I've heard from another
union.

And oftentimes they do not
share the same thoughts.

Sometimes they do share the same
thoughts.

But I will say we, as a board
have also had conversations

around what does it look
like to fill that shortage

if that happens.

So we have to be prepared either
way.

- Last thing, and we probably
don't enough time for it

but the like all school systems,

the first round of federal
money,

there was a big, there was
some millions of dollars

that came to the Shelby
County school system.

I think there's an
estimated 190 million more

that's about to come.

I think I have that right.

How will that, how was
that money been spent

and how will it be spent going
forward?

- Great question.

We have a board budget
retreat that's coming up

where we're gonna talk about

how we're gonna spend those SO
2.0 funds.

There are some things that we
already know

that we need to do,

but as a board we have not
collectively had the
conversation

around where they will go.

But a good portion of that
is going to make sure that

we are doing, in having
the supplies needed

for those who choose to
go back into the building.

- Is it, and there's been
some talk maybe of tutoring

and summer sessions and that
kind of

making, helping kids get caught
up is,

can the money go towards that as
well?

- It can, but you know, again

I don't wanna say where
something's gonna go again

because we haven't had the
conversation

as a whole board around the
direction of those dollars.

We've only brought up one or two
things.

- And that is all the
time we have this week.

Miska Clay Bibs, thanks for
joining us.

Remember, you can get past
episodes of the show at wkno.org

or you can download the
full podcast of the show

from the daily Memphian site

or wherever you get your
podcasts.

[upbeat music]