1 00:00:01,902 --> 00:00:03,270 - (female announcer)   Production funding for 2 00:00:03,270 --> 00:00:05,038 Behind the Headlines 3 00:00:05,038 --> 00:00:06,640 is made possible in part by: 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,842 the WKNO Production Fund, 5 00:00:08,842 --> 00:00:11,011 the WKNO Endowment Fund, 6 00:00:11,011 --> 00:00:14,014 and by viewers like you.   Thank you. 7 00:00:14,014 --> 00:00:16,116 - A look at the progress and the shortfalls 8 00:00:16,116 --> 00:00:18,385 in the 50 years since the assassination 9 00:00:18,385 --> 00:00:19,820 of Martin Luther King. 10 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:21,855 Tonight on Behind the Headlines. 11 00:00:22,856 --> 00:00:25,726 [dramatic orchestral music] 12 00:00:39,206 --> 00:00:41,108 I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of the Memphis Daily News. 13 00:00:41,108 --> 00:00:42,442 Thanks for joining us. 14 00:00:42,442 --> 00:00:44,111 I am joined tonight by Terri Freeman, 15 00:00:44,111 --> 00:00:46,046 president of the National Civil Right Museum. 16 00:00:46,046 --> 00:00:47,748 - Hi, how are you? 17 00:00:47,748 --> 00:00:48,916 - (Eric) Good, and Elena de la Vega 18 00:00:48,916 --> 00:00:50,517 is associate professor of social work 19 00:00:50,517 --> 00:00:51,652 at the University of Memphis. - Hello. 20 00:00:51,652 --> 00:00:53,320 - Thank you for being here. 21 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,355 Along with Bill Dries, senior reporter 22 00:00:55,355 --> 00:00:57,257 with the Memphis Daily News. 23 00:00:57,257 --> 00:00:59,726 We're here to talk today about a study 24 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:02,496 that the National Civil Rights Museum, that Elena, 25 00:01:02,496 --> 00:01:05,632 that you did on behalf of the Civil Rights Museum 26 00:01:05,632 --> 00:01:09,202 as part of the MLK50 commemoration. 27 00:01:09,202 --> 00:01:11,972 Talk, maybe, I'll just say, you'll do it better than me. 28 00:01:11,972 --> 00:01:13,974 What was the purpose of this study, 29 00:01:13,974 --> 00:01:15,409 the background of the study, 30 00:01:15,409 --> 00:01:16,877 and then we'll walk through many of the findings. 31 00:01:16,877 --> 00:01:17,678 - (Terri) Sure. 32 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:21,315 So when we decided that the commemoration would have 33 00:01:21,315 --> 00:01:24,484 the theme of where do we go from here, 34 00:01:24,484 --> 00:01:27,554 it was important for us to kinda know where here was, 35 00:01:27,554 --> 00:01:31,892 and to then take a look at the 50 years 36 00:01:31,892 --> 00:01:36,897 that had transpired since this data was being developed. 37 00:01:38,332 --> 00:01:41,435 So having been a fan, if you will, 38 00:01:42,369 --> 00:01:44,171 of the annual poverty fact sheet 39 00:01:44,171 --> 00:01:48,709 that Professor De la Vega actually does, 40 00:01:48,709 --> 00:01:53,447 I thought it would be great to look at the current data 41 00:01:53,447 --> 00:01:55,282 and then take it back 50 years 42 00:01:55,282 --> 00:01:57,918 so we have, basically, a baseline 43 00:01:57,918 --> 00:02:00,754 on which to move forward, where do we go from here. 44 00:02:00,754 --> 00:02:02,489 So that was the premise. 45 00:02:02,489 --> 00:02:04,825 And I also believe that, you know, 46 00:02:04,825 --> 00:02:08,662 it's easy for us to have anecdotes and stories 47 00:02:08,662 --> 00:02:10,797 about what we think is happening. 48 00:02:10,797 --> 00:02:12,666 It's important, though, for us to have data, 49 00:02:12,666 --> 00:02:17,671 hard data, real numbers, that frankly you can't argue with. 50 00:02:19,106 --> 00:02:22,175 You have to take them at their face value and move forward. 51 00:02:22,175 --> 00:02:23,744 - And Elena, maybe I'll ask you, 52 00:02:23,744 --> 00:02:26,480 we'll walk through as much as we can in this time, 53 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,483 but some of the key findings from the report. 54 00:02:29,483 --> 00:02:32,285 - Well I think that the findings 55 00:02:32,285 --> 00:02:36,556 that are most important to me, beyond the poverty, 56 00:02:36,556 --> 00:02:39,893 I have been looking at poverty since 2011, 57 00:02:39,893 --> 00:02:43,096 so I wasn't very surprised at the findings 58 00:02:43,096 --> 00:02:46,533 and I wasn't very surprised at the differentials. 59 00:02:46,533 --> 00:02:51,538 The education I had also kinda looked at before, 60 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,910 but it was very rewarding to see the gains in education, 61 00:02:56,910 --> 00:02:59,279 particularly since 1950. 62 00:02:59,279 --> 00:03:04,284 And I decided to start in 1950 to have a nice 63 00:03:06,153 --> 00:03:09,656 starting point before we even had 64 00:03:09,656 --> 00:03:14,661 Brown v. Board of Education and the bus boycott and really 65 00:03:16,096 --> 00:03:19,066 the important moments in the Civil Rights Movement. 66 00:03:19,066 --> 00:03:22,502 So it was really important to have a baseline, for me. 67 00:03:22,502 --> 00:03:26,173 What really surprised me, what really struck me 68 00:03:26,173 --> 00:03:29,042 is that African-Americans have made 69 00:03:29,042 --> 00:03:31,111 tremendous gains in education, 70 00:03:31,111 --> 00:03:34,848 taking advantage of every opportunity afforded to them 71 00:03:34,848 --> 00:03:39,853 by, you know, all the legislation that passed since, 72 00:03:41,221 --> 00:03:45,058 but the median wage has remained about half that of whites 73 00:03:46,660 --> 00:03:49,496 pretty consistently through the decades, 74 00:03:49,496 --> 00:03:51,131 regardless of what else is happening 75 00:03:51,131 --> 00:03:54,601 in the economy or in civil rights. 76 00:03:54,601 --> 00:03:56,470 - We'll talk about some of the high, 77 00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:58,238 you start with the education and the high point. 78 00:03:58,238 --> 00:03:59,573 I think I have this right, 79 00:03:59,573 --> 00:04:01,942 that high school, back in 1960, 80 00:04:01,942 --> 00:04:05,278 only 6% of African-Americans in Shelby County 81 00:04:05,278 --> 00:04:07,714 were graduating from high school or going beyond that. 82 00:04:07,714 --> 00:04:10,750 Now it's 85%, so it's an extremely high number. 83 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,619 I would've, I actually was sort of surprised by that. 84 00:04:12,619 --> 00:04:14,688 I mean the popular perception is that 85 00:04:14,688 --> 00:04:16,790 maybe that number wouldn't have been so high, I think. 86 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:19,826 Which is probably a reflection on the media if nothing else. 87 00:04:19,826 --> 00:04:22,195 And then college back in 1960 was 88 00:04:22,195 --> 00:04:23,964 barely 1% of African-Americans 89 00:04:23,964 --> 00:04:25,799 were completing a bachelor's degree. 90 00:04:25,799 --> 00:04:27,868 It's now closer to 20%. 91 00:04:27,868 --> 00:04:30,070 - And I think what's important about that number is, 92 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:35,075 if I'm correct, the national average for college completion 93 00:04:35,942 --> 00:04:39,279 is only around 20% to 25%. 94 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,316 So when you look at going from 1.2% to 20%, 95 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:46,186 that's right there with the national average. 96 00:04:46,186 --> 00:04:51,191 That's a pretty significant gain in baccalaureate, 97 00:04:52,392 --> 00:04:54,928 or post, let me say post-secondary. 98 00:04:54,928 --> 00:04:57,797 - But then the numbers, as you said, 99 00:04:57,797 --> 00:05:00,333 in terms of median income, that is still 50% 100 00:05:00,333 --> 00:05:03,203 of comparable whites across the board. 101 00:05:03,203 --> 00:05:06,573 And that was, I don't know, I guess I'm a naive optimist. 102 00:05:06,573 --> 00:05:08,675 I had known from other data, and you see 103 00:05:08,675 --> 00:05:10,744 that it's gonna be less, women make less than men, 104 00:05:10,744 --> 00:05:12,445 I mean all that data is out there. 105 00:05:12,445 --> 00:05:14,414 But 50% was certainly striking. 106 00:05:14,414 --> 00:05:18,185 - Fifty percent regardless of what else is happening. 107 00:05:18,185 --> 00:05:20,287 You can have changes in everything else, 108 00:05:20,287 --> 00:05:23,356 and you're not having changes in income. 109 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:26,259 So what is going on? 110 00:05:26,259 --> 00:05:28,929 - And I think if it were 50% 111 00:05:28,929 --> 00:05:33,934 having moved from 10%... 25%... 40%   to 50%, 112 00:05:37,370 --> 00:05:40,941 but it has been consistently at 50%. 113 00:05:40,941 --> 00:05:45,412 So there is no, the gap is not decreasing. 114 00:05:45,412 --> 00:05:46,646 - Yeah. Let's bring Bill in. 115 00:05:46,646 --> 00:05:49,282 - And so, now we have the numbers, 116 00:05:49,282 --> 00:05:51,051 and we have the numbers over 117 00:05:51,051 --> 00:05:53,320 a long period of time to look at. 118 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,223 Why has the gap persisted? 119 00:05:57,457 --> 00:05:59,960 - I believe there are a number of reasons. 120 00:06:01,361 --> 00:06:06,032 I think that we have to look at our internal biases, 121 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:08,201 and they may not be intentional, 122 00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:11,905 but one of the things that research has shown 123 00:06:11,905 --> 00:06:15,976 is that when we have publicly available salaries, 124 00:06:15,976 --> 00:06:19,212 when we have salaries and wages 125 00:06:19,212 --> 00:06:24,217 that are set by a rubric or by a level, 126 00:06:26,419 --> 00:06:29,990 so government jobs or public school jobs 127 00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:32,225 that tend to not have a lot of flexibility, 128 00:06:33,393 --> 00:06:34,995 you enter at this rank with this experience 129 00:06:34,995 --> 00:06:38,231 and this education, this is the salary and it's published, 130 00:06:38,231 --> 00:06:41,601 that has almost closed the gap between black and white. 131 00:06:41,601 --> 00:06:44,404 But when we look at private industry 132 00:06:44,404 --> 00:06:48,942 and private corporations, the gap remains. 133 00:06:48,942 --> 00:06:53,280 And it's, so that's part of it. 134 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:57,083 And when we think about, we can think, 135 00:06:57,083 --> 00:07:00,620 a starting salary that is a couple thousand dollars less 136 00:07:00,620 --> 00:07:03,523 is not very great and it might not even be intentional, 137 00:07:03,523 --> 00:07:06,092 it might just be some internal bias operating. 138 00:07:06,092 --> 00:07:09,162 When we look 20 years down the road, 139 00:07:09,162 --> 00:07:12,198 because all salary increases are going 140 00:07:12,198 --> 00:07:14,334 to be a percent of initial salary, 141 00:07:14,334 --> 00:07:17,470 the gap is going to be tremendously high. 142 00:07:17,470 --> 00:07:21,541 - So the percentage comes into play here, 143 00:07:21,541 --> 00:07:25,078 and it starts with an initial bias, 144 00:07:25,078 --> 00:07:27,314 it may be intentional or maybe unintentional, 145 00:07:27,314 --> 00:07:30,250 but the percentage perpetuates it. 146 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:33,086 - (Terri) Right, and I do think that it's 147 00:07:33,086 --> 00:07:36,089 very natural for people to hire people who are like them. 148 00:07:36,089 --> 00:07:39,159 I think that that is just a very natural thing that, 149 00:07:39,159 --> 00:07:43,630 it certainly takes into consideration some bias, 150 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:47,867 but sometimes it is unconscious, the bias that exists, 151 00:07:47,867 --> 00:07:52,872 so that women hire more women, men hire more men, 152 00:07:53,606 --> 00:07:55,075 whites hire more whites, 153 00:07:55,075 --> 00:07:58,011 African-Americans hire more African-Americans. 154 00:07:58,011 --> 00:08:02,182 It's just what is similar to you, 155 00:08:02,182 --> 00:08:05,018 and I think that that has something to do with it as well. 156 00:08:05,018 --> 00:08:07,454 But I also agree that, you know, 157 00:08:07,454 --> 00:08:10,357 if you're hired in low, you stay low. 158 00:08:10,357 --> 00:08:14,961 The wage does not usually jump up unless there's 159 00:08:14,961 --> 00:08:17,397 a promotion, and then, in a promotion situation, 160 00:08:17,397 --> 00:08:21,968 if you're promoted low, you continue to stay low. 161 00:08:21,968 --> 00:08:24,971 - So Terri, what do you do with this information? 162 00:08:24,971 --> 00:08:28,775 Do you have employers at the table? 163 00:08:28,775 --> 00:08:31,845 Do you have people who make these decisions at the table? 164 00:08:31,845 --> 00:08:34,047 And how does that discussion begin? 165 00:08:34,047 --> 00:08:37,717 - Well I think what happens with the data is, 166 00:08:37,717 --> 00:08:39,719 first, get it out there. 167 00:08:39,719 --> 00:08:44,524 So being able to put it out there into the public view, 168 00:08:44,524 --> 00:08:47,927 that people can't say, I'm not aware. 169 00:08:47,927 --> 00:08:50,430 We are actually going to be getting this 170 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:52,265 in front of business leaders at 171 00:08:52,265 --> 00:08:54,234 a breakfast that we're having 172 00:08:54,234 --> 00:08:55,735 in partnership with the chamber. 173 00:08:55,735 --> 00:08:56,836 And we're gonna make sure that 174 00:08:56,836 --> 00:08:59,038 everybody leaves with a report. 175 00:08:59,038 --> 00:09:00,840 While it's not, the breakfast isn't 176 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,176 about this report specifically, 177 00:09:03,176 --> 00:09:06,046 they will leave with the report, 178 00:09:06,046 --> 00:09:08,715 and I think we get it in front of public officials as well. 179 00:09:08,715 --> 00:09:11,684 And they begin to kinda look at this data 180 00:09:11,684 --> 00:09:13,753 and say, where are we going to start? 181 00:09:13,753 --> 00:09:15,288 You can't start everywhere, 182 00:09:15,288 --> 00:09:18,958 but you can begin to create a plan and a path forward 183 00:09:18,958 --> 00:09:20,827 that begins to chip away at some of this. 184 00:09:20,827 --> 00:09:24,431 And it's not a public sector issue 185 00:09:24,431 --> 00:09:27,867 or a private sector issue or a non-profit sector issue, 186 00:09:27,867 --> 00:09:29,836 it's an entire community issue, 187 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:32,505 and we have to deal with it from that perspective. 188 00:09:32,505 --> 00:09:35,742 - Elena, we are in an era where, 189 00:09:35,742 --> 00:09:38,411 because of the tax reform that has passed, 190 00:09:38,411 --> 00:09:41,181 a number of corporations are repatriating 191 00:09:41,181 --> 00:09:44,417 their income that is out of the country, 192 00:09:44,417 --> 00:09:46,786 and as a result, they're giving bonuses, 193 00:09:46,786 --> 00:09:48,421 they're giving pay raises. 194 00:09:48,421 --> 00:09:51,124 Is this an opportunity, in that kind 195 00:09:51,124 --> 00:09:55,395 of an environment, to make corrections? 196 00:09:55,395 --> 00:09:57,831 - We have the opportunity to make those corrections 197 00:09:57,831 --> 00:10:01,100 every single day, every single one of us. 198 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:06,105 - I'm a little bit hesitant to 199 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,778 say what's gonna happen with the tax reform, 200 00:10:11,778 --> 00:10:13,913 and I would like to get more evidence. 201 00:10:13,913 --> 00:10:16,850 One case is not evidence, 202 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:19,986 so I think we have to wait and see, 203 00:10:19,986 --> 00:10:22,088 maybe even a couple of years, 204 00:10:22,088 --> 00:10:25,225 whether that money actually was repatriated 205 00:10:25,225 --> 00:10:28,728 and whether those bonuses came. 206 00:10:28,728 --> 00:10:31,030 Here is the problem with bonuses. 207 00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:36,035 They are probably even more subject to unconscious bias 208 00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:39,973 than salaries and things like that, 209 00:10:39,973 --> 00:10:44,978 because we also appraise a performance of those we 210 00:10:46,112 --> 00:10:49,449 supervise, perhaps based on whether we like them, 211 00:10:49,449 --> 00:10:54,287 and we, as humans, tend to like our tribe. 212 00:10:54,287 --> 00:10:57,824 And this has been studied tremendously. 213 00:10:57,824 --> 00:11:01,094 So we know that we are going to, 214 00:11:01,094 --> 00:11:03,897 and I'm not saying this is conscious, 215 00:11:03,897 --> 00:11:06,633 that we're doing it consciously at all, 216 00:11:06,633 --> 00:11:10,603 but we tend to like those who look like us, 217 00:11:10,603 --> 00:11:12,772 that we feel we have something in common with. 218 00:11:12,772 --> 00:11:16,876 And as a result, we tend to asses their work 219 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:20,013 perhaps a little bit more favorably 220 00:11:20,013 --> 00:11:20,980 than we would otherwise. 221 00:11:20,980 --> 00:11:24,717 And the difference at the moment of making the decision 222 00:11:24,717 --> 00:11:27,987 doesn't have to be very great. 223 00:11:27,987 --> 00:11:30,456 In fact, what I would ask anybody 224 00:11:30,456 --> 00:11:34,294 who has any power, any ability 225 00:11:34,294 --> 00:11:37,730 to make those hiring and salary and bonus decisions, 226 00:11:37,730 --> 00:11:42,735 is to look at their biases very, very critically, 227 00:11:43,937 --> 00:11:47,407 because perhaps they're not aware. 228 00:11:47,407 --> 00:11:48,975 In fact I think that most of us 229 00:11:48,975 --> 00:11:51,578 are not aware of having those biases, 230 00:11:51,578 --> 00:11:53,613 and we have to be very conscious, 231 00:11:53,613 --> 00:11:58,351 very deliberate in making those decisions 232 00:11:58,351 --> 00:12:02,589 to make sure that we are treating everybody fairly 233 00:12:02,589 --> 00:12:05,558 and that we're accounting for everything. 234 00:12:05,558 --> 00:12:08,394 - I just wanted to add that I do think 235 00:12:08,394 --> 00:12:10,563 that there is a way that you can get 236 00:12:10,563 --> 00:12:12,465 around that a little bit in bonuses 237 00:12:12,465 --> 00:12:15,201 if you create a formula-based bonus, right? 238 00:12:15,201 --> 00:12:17,103 And so, that is formula-based, 239 00:12:17,103 --> 00:12:20,239 everybody gets whatever the formula is. 240 00:12:20,239 --> 00:12:23,710 Now obviously it's based on the number that they start at. 241 00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:27,380 But I wanted to also make the statement 242 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:29,649 with regard to, there are more and more 243 00:12:29,649 --> 00:12:34,053 companies going to bonus versus an increase in salary. 244 00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:38,524 Well, what that does is that gives you a bump in that year, 245 00:12:38,524 --> 00:12:41,794 but it doesn't help if you're building a retirement, 246 00:12:41,794 --> 00:12:45,665 it doesn't build your salary over time. 247 00:12:45,665 --> 00:12:48,701 And so, what you end up transferring with 248 00:12:48,701 --> 00:12:52,672 is again, a deflated salary, because it hasn't 249 00:12:52,672 --> 00:12:56,175 moved over the course of time. 250 00:12:56,175 --> 00:12:59,078 - Let me, a couple more statistics from here 251 00:12:59,078 --> 00:13:01,080 that are relevant to what you're talking about. 252 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,418 From 1960 to 2016, in Shelby County, 253 00:13:05,418 --> 00:13:08,588 the percentage of African-Americans 254 00:13:08,588 --> 00:13:11,057 who were in white collar professions went 255 00:13:11,057 --> 00:13:14,594 from 8% to 52%, so that's some sort of progress, 256 00:13:14,594 --> 00:13:16,863 I mean, back to some of the years where there are progress. 257 00:13:16,863 --> 00:13:19,265 The percent back in 1960, 258 00:13:19,265 --> 00:13:21,801 85% of African-Americans were in blue collar jobs, 259 00:13:21,801 --> 00:13:23,436 now it's down to 47%. 260 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:25,171 But the study also pointed out 261 00:13:25,171 --> 00:13:27,607 that a white collar job, which maybe back in the '60s 262 00:13:27,607 --> 00:13:29,809 was associated with advancement, 263 00:13:29,809 --> 00:13:32,845 with being in the middle class, white and black, 264 00:13:32,845 --> 00:13:34,781 now, you can have a white collar job 265 00:13:34,781 --> 00:13:36,783 and be in poverty, white or black. 266 00:13:36,783 --> 00:13:38,685 Is that a fair assessment? 267 00:13:38,685 --> 00:13:39,886 - That's absolutely right. 268 00:13:39,886 --> 00:13:41,921 If you think of the blue collar jobs 269 00:13:41,921 --> 00:13:43,923 in the '60s and the '70s, 270 00:13:43,923 --> 00:13:45,892 you're talking heavy manufacturing, 271 00:13:45,892 --> 00:13:49,162 you're talking labor unions, 272 00:13:49,162 --> 00:13:51,964 you're talking a really really good wage. 273 00:13:51,964 --> 00:13:54,067 I mean, I think of the City of Detroit, 274 00:13:54,067 --> 00:13:59,072 and black wealth was created in the car industry, right? 275 00:14:00,273 --> 00:14:02,108 They were able to send their kids to college, 276 00:14:02,108 --> 00:14:05,578 they were able to go on annual vacations, buy homes, 277 00:14:05,578 --> 00:14:09,515 and that was on a blue collar manufacturing salary. 278 00:14:09,515 --> 00:14:10,850 - I mean isn't, Bill would know better than me, 279 00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:12,985 isn't Firestone an example in Memphis? 280 00:14:12,985 --> 00:14:15,054 Firestone in the Frayser neighborhood 281 00:14:15,054 --> 00:14:16,589 and Harvester were the backbone 282 00:14:16,589 --> 00:14:18,725 of that blue collar but solidly, 283 00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:21,060 you know, more American Dream oriented, 284 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:22,795 to whatever degree that's true. 285 00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:25,231 And the decimation of Frayser, a lot of people 286 00:14:25,231 --> 00:14:27,366 would link to those blue collar jobs. 287 00:14:27,366 --> 00:14:29,335 - And to North Memphis too, which was 288 00:14:29,335 --> 00:14:32,238 the industrial belt of the city. 289 00:14:32,238 --> 00:14:34,073 - Also, one other statistic in here is, 290 00:14:34,073 --> 00:14:35,541 and I'll try not to do too many of these, 291 00:14:35,541 --> 00:14:37,310 but they are fascinating, as we talk about this, 292 00:14:37,310 --> 00:14:40,079 the percentage of whites who are 293 00:14:40,079 --> 00:14:42,081 in managerial or professional occupations, 294 00:14:42,081 --> 00:14:44,050 which gets back to the kind of potential bias 295 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:46,052 you're talking about and the people who give the bonuses, 296 00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:49,055 Forty-seven percent of whites are in those jobs, 297 00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:51,290 Twenty-six percent of African-Americans 298 00:14:51,290 --> 00:14:52,692 are in those jobs. 299 00:14:52,692 --> 00:14:54,894 It's a huge increase from where it was in 1960, 300 00:14:54,894 --> 00:14:57,296 in 50 years, it went from 5% to 26%, 301 00:14:57,296 --> 00:14:59,265 but it's still a smaller number. 302 00:14:59,265 --> 00:15:04,270 How much of all of this, probably 10 minutes left here, 303 00:15:05,404 --> 00:15:07,340 is, the study focused on Shelby County, 304 00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:10,076 study done, issues in Memphis, 305 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:11,878 these issues aren't necessarily, 306 00:15:11,878 --> 00:15:14,680 or are they necessarily, specific to Memphis. 307 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,449 I mean, and how do you balance 308 00:15:16,449 --> 00:15:19,352 that conversation about the progress? 309 00:15:19,352 --> 00:15:22,288 Martin Luther King was not in Memphis 310 00:15:22,288 --> 00:15:24,056 just because there was a problem in Memphis, 311 00:15:24,056 --> 00:15:27,093 it was a national, obviously a national civil rights museum. 312 00:15:27,093 --> 00:15:28,828 But there is a way in which, in Memphis, 313 00:15:28,828 --> 00:15:30,863 part of what I'm getting to is 314 00:15:30,863 --> 00:15:33,032 we pick on ourselves, we're harder on ourselves. 315 00:15:33,032 --> 00:15:36,502 Angela Rye, the commentator who spoke at the event recently 316 00:15:36,502 --> 00:15:39,005 and was very critical specifically of Memphis 317 00:15:39,005 --> 00:15:40,907 not making the progress it should have. 318 00:15:40,907 --> 00:15:42,241 So how do you balance that? 319 00:15:42,241 --> 00:15:44,610 - I think, honestly, I think you could go 320 00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:49,215 to almost every urban center in America 321 00:15:49,215 --> 00:15:53,152 and you will find some iteration of this data. 322 00:15:53,152 --> 00:15:56,022 I don't think that this is specific to Memphis. 323 00:15:56,022 --> 00:16:00,259 Now, I do think that the child poverty rate 324 00:16:00,259 --> 00:16:05,164 for African-American children is very high. 325 00:16:05,164 --> 00:16:08,167 I don't think you'll find that in every urban center. 326 00:16:08,167 --> 00:16:11,270 But these numbers should not, 327 00:16:11,270 --> 00:16:15,775 these numbers are, in my estimation, more an indictment 328 00:16:15,775 --> 00:16:20,346 of America than an indictment of Memphis, Tennessee. 329 00:16:20,346 --> 00:16:22,415 - And I will say, just from the numbers here, 330 00:16:22,415 --> 00:16:24,483 and then we'll go to you Elena, 331 00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:25,985 the percent of children in poverty 332 00:16:25,985 --> 00:16:30,690 in Shelby County overall is 35%, which is shocking. 333 00:16:32,258 --> 00:16:33,759 Eleven percent of white children, 334 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,295 Fifty percent, 48% of black children. 335 00:16:36,295 --> 00:16:39,298 However, nationally, you've got 30% 336 00:16:39,298 --> 00:16:41,901 of African-America children in poverty. 337 00:16:41,901 --> 00:16:43,302 So it's not exactly that that's 338 00:16:43,302 --> 00:16:45,204 a great number nationally by comparison, 339 00:16:45,204 --> 00:16:46,472 but it is much, much worse here. 340 00:16:46,472 --> 00:16:47,373 But to your point. 341 00:16:48,574 --> 00:16:49,809 - Well, and part of the problem is that 342 00:16:49,809 --> 00:16:52,111 a few years ago, a couple of years ago, 343 00:16:52,111 --> 00:16:53,613 we saw a decrease in poverty 344 00:16:53,613 --> 00:16:56,148 and in child poverty nationwide, 345 00:16:56,148 --> 00:16:59,085 and yet we went in the opposite direction. 346 00:16:59,085 --> 00:17:01,520 So I think that is much more concerning, 347 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,890 the direction in which we are moving. 348 00:17:03,890 --> 00:17:07,193 But I think it's very very important to clarify 349 00:17:07,193 --> 00:17:09,862 that when we're talking about Memphis 350 00:17:09,862 --> 00:17:13,199 as the poorest area, we're talking about 351 00:17:13,199 --> 00:17:16,269 the poorest large metropolitan area 352 00:17:16,269 --> 00:17:18,137 with more than a million people. 353 00:17:18,137 --> 00:17:22,642 So when we look at smaller metropolitan areas 354 00:17:22,642 --> 00:17:25,444 or smaller cities, we're not number one. 355 00:17:25,444 --> 00:17:29,649 In fact, Detroit and the McAllen area 356 00:17:29,649 --> 00:17:34,287 are much greater poverty than we are. 357 00:17:34,287 --> 00:17:39,125 And then the other thing that is important to point out, 358 00:17:39,125 --> 00:17:41,961 as I'd like to second what you said, 359 00:17:41,961 --> 00:17:45,064 as goes Memphis, so goes the nation. 360 00:17:45,064 --> 00:17:50,069 We are really just... maybe emblematic 361 00:17:52,438 --> 00:17:55,007 of the greater problems, but certainly not unique. 362 00:17:55,007 --> 00:17:56,943 - (Eric) Bill. 363 00:17:56,943 --> 00:17:59,278 - You also looked at incarceration rates 364 00:17:59,278 --> 00:18:03,182 and exposure to the criminal justice system. 365 00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:06,018 Basically, your findings there, which again, 366 00:18:06,018 --> 00:18:10,990 we've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence of this, 367 00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:13,392 but what did your study find in that regard? 368 00:18:13,392 --> 00:18:17,563 - Well we, in 1980, the percent of 369 00:18:17,563 --> 00:18:20,800 African-Americans and whites in prisons 370 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,171 or institutionalized was very, very similar. 371 00:18:25,171 --> 00:18:29,809 And, okay, you could say it's not great, 372 00:18:29,809 --> 00:18:32,745 but there appears to be some parity here. 373 00:18:32,745 --> 00:18:36,582 And now, there is much greater percent 374 00:18:36,582 --> 00:18:40,319 of African-Americans that have been institutionalized. 375 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:42,955 I did look at national data, and if you look at 376 00:18:42,955 --> 00:18:47,960 what I did here in Memphis in the national data, 377 00:18:48,828 --> 00:18:51,063 the graphs are almost identical. 378 00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:52,798 They reflect each other. 379 00:18:52,798 --> 00:18:55,401 And so that's, again, to your point 380 00:18:55,401 --> 00:18:57,536 of what's happening in Memphis is really 381 00:18:57,536 --> 00:19:00,873 a reflection of what's happening in the rest of the country. 382 00:19:00,873 --> 00:19:03,609 And yes, we have a lot of work to do 383 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:05,978 in Memphis and in Shelby County, 384 00:19:05,978 --> 00:19:08,914 and certainly we are interested in this area 385 00:19:08,914 --> 00:19:10,750 because this is where we live 386 00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:12,251 and this is what we care about, 387 00:19:12,251 --> 00:19:15,254 but this is something that is a national conversation, 388 00:19:15,254 --> 00:19:17,590 should be a national conversation. 389 00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:20,693 These are problems that are affecting the entire nation. 390 00:19:20,693 --> 00:19:22,928 - In our local conversations, the term 391 00:19:22,928 --> 00:19:25,464 "disproportionate minority contact" 392 00:19:25,464 --> 00:19:29,468 has come to be associated with juvenile court. 393 00:19:29,468 --> 00:19:30,803 - (Elena) Yes. 394 00:19:30,803 --> 00:19:33,039 - Is there disproportionate minority contact 395 00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:36,042 in the adult incarceration system? 396 00:19:36,042 --> 00:19:37,476 - (Elena) Oh absolutely. 397 00:19:37,476 --> 00:19:39,512 - (Terri) Yes, it does appear so based 398 00:19:39,512 --> 00:19:43,215 on the data. And it appears to me that there were 399 00:19:43,215 --> 00:19:46,685 policy decisions that were made that impacted 400 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,192 the number of times people came into contact 401 00:19:53,192 --> 00:19:55,795 with the criminal justice system 402 00:19:55,795 --> 00:19:58,064 because of the consistency between 403 00:19:58,064 --> 00:20:00,533 the local data and the national data. 404 00:20:00,533 --> 00:20:03,235 There were some decisions that were made 405 00:20:03,235 --> 00:20:05,838 that have impacted how we deal with 406 00:20:05,838 --> 00:20:09,208 criminal justice in our country, 407 00:20:09,208 --> 00:20:10,943 and I believe that there are some 408 00:20:10,943 --> 00:20:12,778 policy decisions that could be made 409 00:20:12,778 --> 00:20:17,116 that could also begin to help us decrease that number. 410 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:20,219 - Decisions around mandatory minimum sentences? 411 00:20:20,219 --> 00:20:21,454 - (Terri) Yes, absolutely. 412 00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:24,223 Mandatory minimums, really rethinking 413 00:20:25,257 --> 00:20:28,527 what we do around the possession 414 00:20:28,527 --> 00:20:33,532 of small amounts of illegal substances. 415 00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:36,469 Is that a crime that you think 416 00:20:36,469 --> 00:20:40,106 is necessary to actually put somebody in jail? 417 00:20:40,106 --> 00:20:42,441 Are there other opportunities for us 418 00:20:42,441 --> 00:20:46,245 to figure out how we have people pay, if you will, 419 00:20:46,245 --> 00:20:49,115 restitution for those types of crimes? 420 00:20:49,115 --> 00:20:50,616 - (Eric) Go ahead Elena. 421 00:20:50,616 --> 00:20:52,218 - I would like to point out that this doesn't start 422 00:20:52,218 --> 00:20:55,621 with the criminal justice system, it starts in schools. 423 00:20:55,621 --> 00:21:00,159 And I did some research that the Benjamin L. Hooks Institute 424 00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:03,028 published in the Hooks Policy Papers. 425 00:21:03,028 --> 00:21:08,033 And what I found is that the rate of punishment 426 00:21:09,468 --> 00:21:13,639 and expulsion and suspension for African-American children, 427 00:21:13,639 --> 00:21:15,908 both in former Memphis city schools, 428 00:21:15,908 --> 00:21:18,110 Shelby County schools, but also 429 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:20,079 when Shelby County was independent, 430 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:23,115 was up to 700 times higher 431 00:21:23,115 --> 00:21:26,685 for African-American male students 432 00:21:26,685 --> 00:21:29,688 as for white students and other students. 433 00:21:29,688 --> 00:21:33,659 So we're not beginning at the criminal justice system. 434 00:21:33,659 --> 00:21:38,297 We are taking children, and I am using the word 435 00:21:38,297 --> 00:21:41,734 in its traditional sense, small little boys, 436 00:21:44,003 --> 00:21:49,008 who are being harassed at a young age 437 00:21:50,209 --> 00:21:52,311 for behaviors that may not have anything to do-- 438 00:21:53,479 --> 00:21:56,048 - I don't think it's helpful at all 439 00:21:56,048 --> 00:21:58,517 to remove children who are having 440 00:21:58,517 --> 00:22:00,553 difficulty in school from school. 441 00:22:00,553 --> 00:22:03,022 I think there's a different way, that maybe 442 00:22:03,022 --> 00:22:05,791 they don't need to be in that particular classroom. 443 00:22:05,791 --> 00:22:08,494 But the idea of restorative justice opportunities 444 00:22:08,494 --> 00:22:13,098 where we can, we need to keep children in school, 445 00:22:13,098 --> 00:22:14,600 that's where they should be. 446 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,435 - There's so much to do on this, and it's interesting, 447 00:22:16,435 --> 00:22:18,070 we actually, 'cause of just some scheduling things, 448 00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:21,840 we pre-taped a conversation with the U.S. attorney, 449 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,210 newly appointed in September, who talks, 450 00:22:24,210 --> 00:22:26,979 I will say, a very, very different perspective 451 00:22:26,979 --> 00:22:28,514 on, we didn't talk about race 452 00:22:28,514 --> 00:22:30,149 but we did talk about mandatory minimum sentencing 453 00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:32,618 and who should be, so that show is coming up soon 454 00:22:32,618 --> 00:22:35,521 and there'll be a very different point of view 455 00:22:35,521 --> 00:22:38,457 expressed, you know, from the, coming from 456 00:22:38,457 --> 00:22:41,460 the Trump Administration on down. 457 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,162 With just three, four minutes left, 458 00:22:43,162 --> 00:22:45,264 we can talk more and more about this, 459 00:22:45,264 --> 00:22:48,067 the study is on the Civil Rights Museum site? 460 00:22:48,067 --> 00:22:49,335 - (Terri) It is. 461 00:22:49,335 --> 00:22:50,569 - It is, so you can get it there. 462 00:22:50,569 --> 00:22:53,205 I wanna talk a little bit about MLK 50, 463 00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:55,241 moving towards April. 464 00:22:55,241 --> 00:22:56,942 What all is going on? 465 00:22:56,942 --> 00:22:59,612 What events should people look for? 466 00:22:59,612 --> 00:23:02,715 - Well, where we're headed right now 467 00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:05,384 is into the first week of April, 468 00:23:05,384 --> 00:23:07,319 second, third and fourth. 469 00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:09,388 The second and third we will have 470 00:23:09,388 --> 00:23:13,092 a two day symposium on where do we go from here. 471 00:23:13,092 --> 00:23:15,327 We've partnered with the University of Memphis' 472 00:23:15,327 --> 00:23:17,896 Cecil C. Humphreys Law School, 473 00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:20,799 and the law school will host that first day 474 00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:23,535 with several panels throughout the day. 475 00:23:23,535 --> 00:23:24,837 They'll have a keynote with 476 00:23:24,837 --> 00:23:28,607 Eric Holder on Monday the second. 477 00:23:28,607 --> 00:23:31,543 And then on the third, the National Civil Rights Museum 478 00:23:31,543 --> 00:23:36,482 will host the second day of the symposium on the campus of, 479 00:23:36,482 --> 00:23:39,051 the main campus of the University of Memphis, 480 00:23:39,051 --> 00:23:44,056 and focusing on labor issues in Memphis, 481 00:23:45,157 --> 00:23:47,593 the past, the present, the future, 482 00:23:47,593 --> 00:23:52,598 economic equity and education and the promise of education, 483 00:23:53,999 --> 00:23:56,368 which will be interesting based on this study 484 00:23:56,368 --> 00:23:59,405 what the promise of education actually is. 485 00:23:59,405 --> 00:24:02,107 And we have a keynote that day with Taylor Branch. 486 00:24:02,107 --> 00:24:04,710 And then on the fourth, which is 487 00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:07,079 the actual 50th anniversary, 488 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:08,881 we'll have a day of remembrance 489 00:24:08,881 --> 00:24:11,116 that will be in the courtyard of 490 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:12,618 the National Civil Rights Museum. 491 00:24:12,618 --> 00:24:15,120 We'll have a variety of speakers and entertainment 492 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,023 and speeches that will be delivered there, 493 00:24:18,023 --> 00:24:21,827 organizations that worked with King 494 00:24:21,827 --> 00:24:23,862 or were a part of King's makeup 495 00:24:23,862 --> 00:24:27,099 as well as other organizations 496 00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:29,702 that are doing the hard work now, 497 00:24:29,702 --> 00:24:32,671 and we'll have a commemoration in the courtyard 498 00:24:32,671 --> 00:24:35,441 beginning at 3:30, ending at 6:01 499 00:24:35,441 --> 00:24:40,279 with a bell tolling across, actually, the globe. 500 00:24:40,279 --> 00:24:41,613 We've even found that there's some 501 00:24:41,613 --> 00:24:44,383 international interest in ringing bells. 502 00:24:44,383 --> 00:24:46,819 And then at the end of the day we'll have 503 00:24:46,819 --> 00:24:49,455 an evening of storytelling with icons 504 00:24:49,455 --> 00:24:52,491 from the 20th Century Civil Rights Movement 505 00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:55,594 and new movement makers of the 21st Century. 506 00:24:55,594 --> 00:24:58,997 So conversations with these groups of people. 507 00:24:58,997 --> 00:25:00,599 - And, not to put you in a bad spot, 508 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:02,368 but I do wanna come back to Angela Rye 509 00:25:02,368 --> 00:25:05,304 and her comments recently at a forum that was part of this, 510 00:25:05,304 --> 00:25:06,839 and she was very critical specifically 511 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:08,807 of things that were going on in Memphis. 512 00:25:08,807 --> 00:25:11,310 Do you think this spotlight, this growing spotlight 513 00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:13,779 that you've just articulated that's gonna be on Memphis, 514 00:25:13,779 --> 00:25:17,015 is it, does Memphis look good under that light? 515 00:25:17,015 --> 00:25:22,020 - I think that Memphis addressing the issues of the 516 00:25:23,188 --> 00:25:26,525 past, where we are presently, and where we're headed, 517 00:25:26,525 --> 00:25:28,894 is the best picture that we can present. 518 00:25:28,894 --> 00:25:31,630 I think the fact that people are thinking about 519 00:25:31,630 --> 00:25:34,867 where do we go from here is a very positive thing. 520 00:25:34,867 --> 00:25:37,336 And what we want people to do 521 00:25:37,336 --> 00:25:39,571 when they come for the symposium 522 00:25:39,571 --> 00:25:44,276 is really talk about how the nation looks 523 00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:46,445 right now at this point 524 00:25:46,445 --> 00:25:49,048 and how the nation needs to move forward, 525 00:25:49,048 --> 00:25:51,917 and within that, how Memphis should move forward. 526 00:25:51,917 --> 00:25:55,988 So again, this is not at all an indictment of Memphis. 527 00:25:55,988 --> 00:25:58,991 I think the worst thing that we could do 528 00:25:58,991 --> 00:26:01,560 would be to sugarcoat where we are. 529 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,195 I think it's important for us 530 00:26:03,195 --> 00:26:05,197 to be honest about where we are 531 00:26:05,197 --> 00:26:07,266 and optimistic about where we're headed. 532 00:26:07,266 --> 00:26:08,700 - Alright, we will leave it there. 533 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:11,069 Thank you for being here, thank you Elena, thank you Bill. 534 00:26:11,069 --> 00:26:12,371 And thank you for joining us. 535 00:26:12,371 --> 00:26:13,839 Join us again next week. 536 00:26:26,618 --> 00:26:28,620 [acoustic guitar chords]