1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,002 (female narrator)   Production funding for   Behind the Headlines 2 00:00:02,002 --> 00:00:03,937 is made possible in part by.. 3 00:00:03,937 --> 00:00:07,040 (male narrator)   DHG is a full service   accounting firm serving 4 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,977 Memphis and the Mid-South region   for more than 60 years combining 5 00:00:09,977 --> 00:00:13,113 community involvement with   the technical resources of a 6 00:00:13,113 --> 00:00:14,114 national firm. 7 00:00:14,114 --> 00:00:17,117 For more information   visit DHGLLP.com. 8 00:00:26,059 --> 00:00:28,328 - A continued look at the history of the city's financial 9 00:00:28,328 --> 00:00:30,898 problems tonight on Behind the Headlines. 10 00:00:30,898 --> 00:00:47,447 [theme music] 11 00:00:47,447 --> 00:00:49,483 I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of the Memphis Daily News. 12 00:00:49,483 --> 00:00:50,684 Thanks for joining us. 13 00:00:50,684 --> 00:00:53,520 Today is the second of a two part show that follows the 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,756 Financial Mess series that was in The Commercial Appeal. 15 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:57,758 I'm glad to have Marc Perrusquia at the table. 16 00:00:57,758 --> 00:00:58,759 Thank you for being here. 17 00:00:58,759 --> 00:00:59,760 - Thank you very much. 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,762 (Eric)   Projects reporter for The   Commercial Appeal and the lead 19 00:01:01,762 --> 00:01:02,763 reporter on the whole series. 20 00:01:02,763 --> 00:01:04,064 Thanks very much. 21 00:01:04,064 --> 00:01:07,134 We've also got Tom Jones, a   sometime consultant to Memphis 22 00:01:07,134 --> 00:01:09,903 and consultant to cities   all around the world 23 00:01:09,903 --> 00:01:10,904 and the country. 24 00:01:10,904 --> 00:01:12,339 Thank you for being here. 25 00:01:12,339 --> 00:01:14,675 Rick Masson is a former chief   administrative officer for the 26 00:01:14,675 --> 00:01:16,677 city during the   Herenton administration. 27 00:01:16,677 --> 00:01:18,011 Thank you for being here. 28 00:01:18,011 --> 00:01:20,447 And Marlon Mosby, a former   finance director for the city. 29 00:01:20,447 --> 00:01:21,448 Thanks for being here. 30 00:01:21,448 --> 00:01:23,450 Also, a consultant to   other administrations, 31 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:24,451 I believe so. 32 00:01:24,451 --> 00:01:25,452 We'll get to that. 33 00:01:25,452 --> 00:01:27,454 And Bill Dries, senior reporter   with The Memphis Daily News. 34 00:01:27,454 --> 00:01:29,456 And so, the series -- and it's still 35 00:01:29,456 --> 00:01:31,458 on The Commercial Appeal website. 36 00:01:31,458 --> 00:01:33,460 And the previous show we did is on the KNO site. 37 00:01:33,460 --> 00:01:35,462 It's on The Memphis Daily News site if you want to track along. 38 00:01:35,462 --> 00:01:37,497 But it covers some broad areas. 39 00:01:37,497 --> 00:01:40,067 How it happened, how the city got in to the financial mess. 40 00:01:40,067 --> 00:01:42,002 Annexation and population loss. 41 00:01:42,002 --> 00:01:44,004 And then, the rise of debt and spending, 42 00:01:44,004 --> 00:01:45,072 to some degree track that. 43 00:01:45,072 --> 00:01:47,074 We went through that in last week's show. 44 00:01:47,074 --> 00:01:49,076 We'll focus this show on pension, 45 00:01:49,076 --> 00:01:51,511 the drop part of the pension, the rise of spending with the 46 00:01:51,511 --> 00:01:53,914 police department and a look at some of the pain ahead and the 47 00:01:53,914 --> 00:01:55,916 pain that's going on right now in budget season. 48 00:01:55,916 --> 00:01:58,752 But again, I'll ask you, Marc, to kind of frame why the series 49 00:01:58,752 --> 00:02:00,754 was important and what your thoughts, 50 00:02:00,754 --> 00:02:03,890 takeaways from this series are. 51 00:02:03,890 --> 00:02:06,627 - Well, I think, you know, one of the driving forces for the 52 00:02:06,627 --> 00:02:09,796 current financial crisis that the city went through was the 53 00:02:09,796 --> 00:02:12,332 whole pension issue is why we spent some time talking 54 00:02:12,332 --> 00:02:13,333 about that. 55 00:02:13,333 --> 00:02:16,937 You know, the state legislator had mandated that cities have to 56 00:02:16,937 --> 00:02:18,939 meet their annual required contribution. 57 00:02:18,939 --> 00:02:21,942 They had this unfunded liability sitting there. 58 00:02:21,942 --> 00:02:25,345 They hadn't made all our paid all the money that they owed 59 00:02:25,345 --> 00:02:26,346 the pension. 60 00:02:26,346 --> 00:02:28,348 But now you've got to meet it by 2020. 61 00:02:28,348 --> 00:02:30,350 And so, this is what the city is up against. 62 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:33,687 And so, we really focused on how they got there with the pension 63 00:02:33,687 --> 00:02:36,990 system that they are now and some of the very generous 64 00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:39,393 benefits that they gave over the years. 65 00:02:39,393 --> 00:02:42,462 And how they stopped funding it really. 66 00:02:42,462 --> 00:02:45,532 I mean, before the financial crisis, 67 00:02:45,532 --> 00:02:47,267 the economy crashed in 2008. 68 00:02:47,267 --> 00:02:50,270 A couple of years before that, they were already severely short 69 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:52,039 changing the pension system. 70 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:54,675 So, we tried to drill down on some of those issues. 71 00:02:54,675 --> 00:02:56,676 - And all of that against the backdrop of, 72 00:02:56,676 --> 00:02:58,679 as we talked about on the last show. 73 00:02:58,679 --> 00:03:00,680 And Bill, you had the advantage of watching the show. 74 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,682 As we joked, you can fact check us on how we did. 75 00:03:02,682 --> 00:03:04,684 Henry Evans, the former CAO was here. 76 00:03:04,684 --> 00:03:08,055 But all of that, that spending and the rise in pensions and 77 00:03:08,055 --> 00:03:09,222 there was a rise in staffing. 78 00:03:09,222 --> 00:03:11,491 All of that was against a backdrop of annexation, 79 00:03:11,491 --> 00:03:13,994 of population loss and again, that spending increase. 80 00:03:13,994 --> 00:03:15,996 Your thoughts when you watch the show? 81 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:17,998 I mean, you reported on much of that. 82 00:03:17,998 --> 00:03:21,234 But what did we miss and what did it remind you of? 83 00:03:21,234 --> 00:03:23,770 - Oh, I'm not going to say anyone at this table for that 84 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:25,872 show missed anything or now. 85 00:03:25,872 --> 00:03:27,874 It was a pretty lively discussion. 86 00:03:27,874 --> 00:03:32,646 Context, to me, is really king on this. 87 00:03:32,646 --> 00:03:36,750 And I think that you all talked about the priorities 88 00:03:36,750 --> 00:03:37,984 at the time. 89 00:03:37,984 --> 00:03:41,655 The city was a changing creature during those years. 90 00:03:41,655 --> 00:03:45,325 We're talking about a span from 1960 all the way up 91 00:03:45,325 --> 00:03:46,960 to the present. 92 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:52,099 There are issues present today in running a city that folks in 93 00:03:52,099 --> 00:03:54,201 1960 never even dreamed of. 94 00:03:54,201 --> 00:03:57,838 There are things that cities do today that they didn't do in 95 00:03:57,838 --> 00:04:00,674 1960 and vice versa. 96 00:04:00,674 --> 00:04:06,413 And also, if you look at our city in particular, 97 00:04:06,413 --> 00:04:09,850 the city of Memphis, look at all the history 98 00:04:09,850 --> 00:04:10,984 that we've been through. 99 00:04:10,984 --> 00:04:15,755 Look at all the turmoil that have all played a part in 100 00:04:15,755 --> 00:04:18,291 determining what our priorities are. 101 00:04:18,291 --> 00:04:23,997 Mayors get elected based on several things that they want 102 00:04:23,997 --> 00:04:24,998 to do. 103 00:04:24,998 --> 00:04:27,434 Usually three or four big things I think even though some folks 104 00:04:27,434 --> 00:04:31,738 campaign on a much larger scale of things that they want to do. 105 00:04:31,738 --> 00:04:34,307 And people make choices on that. 106 00:04:34,307 --> 00:04:37,677 And they make changes based on that, as well. 107 00:04:37,677 --> 00:04:42,482 - Well, so against that backdrop of the history of 40 years, 108 00:04:42,482 --> 00:04:43,783 there's a pension program. 109 00:04:43,783 --> 00:04:46,052 There's a pension that is underfunded, 110 00:04:46,052 --> 00:04:48,655 as Marc said better than I will. 111 00:04:48,655 --> 00:04:50,657 It's a national phenomenon in some degree. 112 00:04:50,657 --> 00:04:51,658 It's a national debate. 113 00:04:51,658 --> 00:04:54,227 But there are a lot of people who say now and I'm sure watched 114 00:04:54,227 --> 00:04:57,330 last week's show and said, "Yeah but what about pensions?" 115 00:04:57,330 --> 00:04:58,398 That's the smoking gun. 116 00:04:58,398 --> 00:05:00,400 If you're going to talk about the financial problem in 117 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,402 Memphis, it begins and ends with pensions. 118 00:05:02,402 --> 00:05:03,403 You were finance director. 119 00:05:03,403 --> 00:05:04,404 Do you see that? 120 00:05:04,404 --> 00:05:06,406 And you've consulted with other administrations. 121 00:05:06,406 --> 00:05:09,142 Do you see that pension somehow is the smoking gun 122 00:05:09,142 --> 00:05:10,911 of all our trouble? 123 00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:15,348 - No, I think it's much broader than that. 124 00:05:15,348 --> 00:05:19,419 I think it's more fundamental in the way our revenue base 125 00:05:19,419 --> 00:05:21,087 is built. 126 00:05:21,087 --> 00:05:26,793 But it is the point that when they stopped funding it at the 127 00:05:26,793 --> 00:05:28,795 level that they needed to fund it at, 128 00:05:28,795 --> 00:05:31,464 it is the hole that they dug themselves in to. 129 00:05:31,464 --> 00:05:36,436 Uh, and that is very difficult now to get out of. 130 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:40,106 - We got a chart again from the series that shows over the, 131 00:05:40,106 --> 00:05:42,175 what? -- 40 year period here,   the number of people 132 00:05:42,175 --> 00:05:43,510 on the pension program. 133 00:05:43,510 --> 00:05:45,378 So, we'll put that up. 134 00:05:45,378 --> 00:05:48,748 Rick, you were faced   with tough choices as CAO. 135 00:05:48,748 --> 00:05:52,953 I mean, you all had a whole lot   of land that had been annexed, 136 00:05:52,953 --> 00:05:54,955 as you said, that you guys   really weren't part of that. 137 00:05:54,955 --> 00:05:56,156 But you received it. 138 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:58,158 The city was massive. 139 00:05:58,158 --> 00:06:00,160 I mean, as we said in the last show, 140 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,495 bigger than the whole of New York City, 141 00:06:02,495 --> 00:06:03,730 as least physically. 142 00:06:03,730 --> 00:06:05,732 So, there are a lot of service and a lot of people had to be 143 00:06:05,732 --> 00:06:07,734 hired, I suppose, from your point of view. 144 00:06:07,734 --> 00:06:09,736 But did you all look and say, "You know, 145 00:06:09,736 --> 00:06:12,105 "we're creating a potential pension liability that's going 146 00:06:12,105 --> 00:06:13,306 to get out of hand here." 147 00:06:13,306 --> 00:06:15,976 Or what sort of thinking went in to that? 148 00:06:15,976 --> 00:06:20,347 - Well, first sort of following up on what Bill said here, 149 00:06:20,347 --> 00:06:25,385 you know, to put this in context over this time frame. 150 00:06:25,385 --> 00:06:28,888 Originally public employees received higher pension or 151 00:06:28,888 --> 00:06:33,293 benefits if you will primarily because they were under the 152 00:06:33,293 --> 00:06:34,594 market in salaries. 153 00:06:34,594 --> 00:06:37,264 That was kind of an understanding. 154 00:06:37,264 --> 00:06:39,466 In order to recruit and retain, not with some, 155 00:06:39,466 --> 00:06:42,535 but recruit and retain employees, you.. 156 00:06:42,535 --> 00:06:44,871 For whatever reason, the salaries were lower. 157 00:06:44,871 --> 00:06:46,940 And pensions and benefits were higher. 158 00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:52,812 That probably began to shift with the coming of the public 159 00:06:52,812 --> 00:06:56,349 unions and as that occurred. 160 00:06:56,349 --> 00:06:58,718 We faced, you know, pension issues. 161 00:06:58,718 --> 00:07:01,321 But, I mean, in our situation, we fully funded, 162 00:07:01,321 --> 00:07:04,024 you know, the pension that was required, 163 00:07:04,024 --> 00:07:06,559 that the actuary said we should fund. 164 00:07:06,559 --> 00:07:08,028 And we funded that. 165 00:07:08,028 --> 00:07:09,829 As it relates to a.. 166 00:07:09,829 --> 00:07:14,167 In fact, for several years there even after all these changes in 167 00:07:14,167 --> 00:07:15,235 the pension plan.. 168 00:07:15,235 --> 00:07:16,670 Several years we overfunded. 169 00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:19,205 As it pointed out in the article, 170 00:07:19,205 --> 00:07:23,176 we overfunded the pension plan in order to protect it against 171 00:07:23,176 --> 00:07:25,178 future downturns in the economy. 172 00:07:25,178 --> 00:07:27,180 No one could have ever anticipated, 173 00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:28,248 I don't think. 174 00:07:28,248 --> 00:07:29,683 Our actuaries did not. 175 00:07:29,683 --> 00:07:32,953 That the economy would have such a tremendous downturn. 176 00:07:32,953 --> 00:07:36,956 But we were fully putting additional funds in to the plan 177 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:40,927 to get it ready for eventual downturn in the economy. 178 00:07:40,927 --> 00:07:43,096 - And Tom, I mean, your take. 179 00:07:43,096 --> 00:07:47,500 Is pension the smoking gun that some people want to say it is? 180 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:48,835 - I agree with Marlin. 181 00:07:48,835 --> 00:07:50,203 I think it's a problem. 182 00:07:50,203 --> 00:07:52,539 I don't think it's the smoking gun. 183 00:07:52,539 --> 00:07:55,809 I just think there's always a political benefit in beating up 184 00:07:55,809 --> 00:07:56,810 public employees. 185 00:07:56,810 --> 00:08:00,814 [laughter] 186 00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:02,749 - Some of it is, you know, you talk about. 187 00:08:02,749 --> 00:08:07,454 You, Rick, talked a little bit about the public employee unions 188 00:08:07,454 --> 00:08:09,222 getting involved. 189 00:08:09,222 --> 00:08:11,458 There got to be, what? -- I think a lot of people would 190 00:08:11,458 --> 00:08:14,461 see some excesses in some of the benefits, the 12 year program. 191 00:08:14,461 --> 00:08:17,030 Why don't you describe the 12 and out? 192 00:08:17,030 --> 00:08:18,031 Yeah. 193 00:08:18,031 --> 00:08:22,001 - It was a brief program that they had that lasted I think 194 00:08:22,001 --> 00:08:23,002 three years. 195 00:08:23,002 --> 00:08:24,471 It was done for the.. 196 00:08:24,471 --> 00:08:27,307 It had been 15 and out before that. 197 00:08:27,307 --> 00:08:34,314 And the council approved it in 2001 for elected 198 00:08:34,314 --> 00:08:35,315 and appointed officials. 199 00:08:35,315 --> 00:08:37,317 And basically, you could retire after 12 years of service. 200 00:08:37,317 --> 00:08:38,318 It was very unpopular. 201 00:08:38,318 --> 00:08:40,387 - Except for those people who got it. 202 00:08:40,387 --> 00:08:42,389 - Well, in the big picture, I mean, 203 00:08:42,389 --> 00:08:43,390 it really is a small. 204 00:08:43,390 --> 00:08:45,392 I mean, you're not talking huge amounts of money. 205 00:08:45,392 --> 00:08:47,394 I think there were about 300 people or so over the years that 206 00:08:47,394 --> 00:08:48,395 qualified for it. 207 00:08:48,395 --> 00:08:50,397 But, I mean, it was very unpopular. 208 00:08:50,397 --> 00:08:53,666 [cross-talk] 209 00:08:53,666 --> 00:08:58,405 Emblematic of the, you know, the overspending that people 210 00:08:58,405 --> 00:09:00,407 thought was going on in the city. 211 00:09:00,407 --> 00:09:01,608 - Is it also emblematic? 212 00:09:01,608 --> 00:09:02,742 I mean, you've got.. 213 00:09:02,742 --> 00:09:04,344 You start, I think, that story with 214 00:09:04,344 --> 00:09:05,678 or it's in the story certainly. 215 00:09:05,678 --> 00:09:07,647 There's a 40-something-year-old former police officer who 216 00:09:07,647 --> 00:09:08,782 retired after 25 years. 217 00:09:08,782 --> 00:09:10,183 Not 12 years, after 25 years. 218 00:09:10,183 --> 00:09:12,919 He gets a pension for the rest of his life in the $40,000 219 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:14,821 range and he works in Florida as -- I think in banking. 220 00:09:14,821 --> 00:09:16,823 (Marc)   You can't   fault him for that. 221 00:09:16,823 --> 00:09:20,060 He took advantage of what the system allowed. 222 00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:23,563 I think one of the interesting things that we found in that is, 223 00:09:23,563 --> 00:09:26,232 you know, when we got a spread sheet of all the retirees, 224 00:09:26,232 --> 00:09:29,903 a third of them retired in their forties, 225 00:09:29,903 --> 00:09:31,905 which I thought was eye-opening. 226 00:09:31,905 --> 00:09:34,207 Because you think about in the general public and you've got to 227 00:09:34,207 --> 00:09:36,209 try to be fair about this, too, like Rick is saying. 228 00:09:36,209 --> 00:09:38,211 I mean, they don't get social security. 229 00:09:38,211 --> 00:09:40,547 Although, a lot of them have access to social security 230 00:09:40,547 --> 00:09:42,749 through second jobs or spouses. 231 00:09:42,749 --> 00:09:47,086 But, I mean, the typical person is not going to retire in their 232 00:09:47,086 --> 00:09:50,323 forties, you know, with a full pension payable immediately for 233 00:09:50,323 --> 00:09:51,324 their rest of their life. 234 00:09:51,324 --> 00:09:53,326 They're going to be working now until their sixties 235 00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:54,327 and seventies. 236 00:09:54,327 --> 00:09:56,329 And so, that was very eye opening. 237 00:09:56,329 --> 00:09:58,331 And it creates quite a drain on the pension system. 238 00:09:58,331 --> 00:09:59,332 - But that's been removed. 239 00:09:59,332 --> 00:10:01,334 That retirement age has been moved. 240 00:10:01,334 --> 00:10:02,335 Is that right? 241 00:10:02,335 --> 00:10:03,403 For new hires, it's at 52 now. 242 00:10:03,403 --> 00:10:05,371 So, politically, I'll go. 243 00:10:05,371 --> 00:10:06,372 I'm going to pick on Rick here. 244 00:10:06,372 --> 00:10:08,374 I mean, politically, you're in the administration. 245 00:10:08,374 --> 00:10:09,709 Things like that are going on. 246 00:10:09,709 --> 00:10:10,977 You guys put forward I think. 247 00:10:10,977 --> 00:10:11,978 I mean, it's quoted. 248 00:10:11,978 --> 00:10:13,980 Herenton's quote is saying we didn't vote for that 249 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:15,248 12 and out thing. 250 00:10:15,248 --> 00:10:18,151 But you must from a political point of view must sort of see 251 00:10:18,151 --> 00:10:20,820 that there's this growing kind of hot button back in the '90s 252 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:22,055 or is it not at that time? 253 00:10:22,055 --> 00:10:23,189 And in to the 2000s. 254 00:10:23,189 --> 00:10:24,190 Was it? 255 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:25,191 - It wasn't hot button. 256 00:10:25,191 --> 00:10:30,530 I mean, there had been a 15 and out for 20 years before that. 257 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:33,800 And, I mean, there's a three years difference. 258 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,937 So, for 20 years prior to the 12 and out, 259 00:10:37,937 --> 00:10:40,540 there was a 15 and out. 260 00:10:40,540 --> 00:10:45,011 And Marc had seen some employees that had retired as early as 40 261 00:10:45,011 --> 00:10:46,012 under that plan. 262 00:10:46,012 --> 00:10:47,280 So, but it was the council. 263 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,016 I'm not going to defend it. 264 00:10:50,016 --> 00:10:54,521 It was something that the council wanted to do. 265 00:10:54,521 --> 00:10:58,258 We were certainly content with the keeping the 15 and out that 266 00:10:58,258 --> 00:11:00,260 had been in place for 20 plus years. 267 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:01,895 - Do you remember, Bill? 268 00:11:01,895 --> 00:11:03,897 I mean, we've done a lot of shows on.. 269 00:11:03,897 --> 00:11:05,899 And you've obviously written about a lot about all this 270 00:11:05,899 --> 00:11:08,468 debate in the last few years of trying to reign in the pension 271 00:11:08,468 --> 00:11:11,971 program, cut benefits as the unions and them at the table 272 00:11:11,971 --> 00:11:13,973 saying, uunfairly cutting the benefits, 273 00:11:13,973 --> 00:11:15,975 taking the -- breaking the -- trying to fix the budget on 274 00:11:15,975 --> 00:11:16,976 their backs and so on. 275 00:11:16,976 --> 00:11:20,079 But do you remember when these plans -- any other time when 276 00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:22,916 you've been following city hall that the debate about pensions 277 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:24,584 was this lively? 278 00:11:24,584 --> 00:11:25,585 - No. 279 00:11:25,585 --> 00:11:32,258 No, it's not been considered a quote unquote sexy issue to get 280 00:11:32,258 --> 00:11:33,426 in to. 281 00:11:33,426 --> 00:11:39,999 But at some point, I think someone was going to drill down 282 00:11:39,999 --> 00:11:41,067 to the essence of it. 283 00:11:41,067 --> 00:11:44,971 I mean, school funding wasn't necessarily a sexy issue either 284 00:11:44,971 --> 00:11:50,076 until the city council decided to make a point about it. 285 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:53,212 And it's figured prominently in to this. 286 00:11:53,212 --> 00:11:55,481 - And the gamer changer was when they changed the law. 287 00:11:55,481 --> 00:11:58,618 You've got to fund it at the full amount. 288 00:11:58,618 --> 00:11:59,919 That's what changed it all. 289 00:11:59,919 --> 00:12:02,322 They had to deal with it. 290 00:12:02,322 --> 00:12:03,323 - Other cities? 291 00:12:03,323 --> 00:12:05,325 I mean, you work with other cities. 292 00:12:05,325 --> 00:12:07,327 This is, again, by no means a Memphis problem. 293 00:12:07,327 --> 00:12:09,762 I mean, the state of Illinois for instance has just horrendous 294 00:12:09,762 --> 00:12:10,863 problems and other cities. 295 00:12:10,863 --> 00:12:15,268 - Yes, some cities are going bankrupt over this issue. 296 00:12:15,268 --> 00:12:17,737 I did some work on this in the beginning, 297 00:12:17,737 --> 00:12:21,641 not for the city of Memphis but for someone else. 298 00:12:21,641 --> 00:12:23,643 And, you know, it looked like Memphis sort of fell in the 299 00:12:23,643 --> 00:12:24,944 middle, you know. 300 00:12:24,944 --> 00:12:29,015 It wasn't quite a crisis but it was headed that way if nothing 301 00:12:29,015 --> 00:12:31,017 was done to deal with it. 302 00:12:31,017 --> 00:12:33,252 - And everyone's take on what -- the changes that have been made 303 00:12:33,252 --> 00:12:34,253 so far. 304 00:12:34,253 --> 00:12:36,055 Again, they haven't all stuck. 305 00:12:36,055 --> 00:12:38,057 I mean, some were passed last year. 306 00:12:38,057 --> 00:12:40,059 But the city council is kind of debating now. 307 00:12:40,059 --> 00:12:42,061 I mean, Marlin, are they going in the right direction, 308 00:12:42,061 --> 00:12:45,498 a necessary direction, in terms of how they're trying to reign 309 00:12:45,498 --> 00:12:49,569 in not just pensions but the health insurance spending and so 310 00:12:49,569 --> 00:12:51,137 on and so forth? 311 00:12:51,137 --> 00:12:53,139 - Uh, I think they're going in the direction they have 312 00:12:53,139 --> 00:12:54,140 to go in. 313 00:12:54,140 --> 00:12:59,879 Uh, they.. 314 00:12:59,879 --> 00:13:00,880 Is it the right one? 315 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,882 I don't know the answer to that. 316 00:13:02,882 --> 00:13:07,387 Um, if you're talking about employees and what's right for 317 00:13:07,387 --> 00:13:09,422 employees, that's truly.. 318 00:13:09,422 --> 00:13:11,791 They appear to be coming out on the short end of this. 319 00:13:11,791 --> 00:13:14,861 If you're looking at it from a budgeting standpoint or a 320 00:13:14,861 --> 00:13:16,863 finance standpoint, how do you balance a budget, 321 00:13:16,863 --> 00:13:19,265 they've got to do it. 322 00:13:19,265 --> 00:13:20,266 - In part.. 323 00:13:20,266 --> 00:13:22,435 And we'll get to more specific about police spending later and 324 00:13:22,435 --> 00:13:23,436 the rise of police spending. 325 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:24,437 But what is it now? 326 00:13:24,437 --> 00:13:27,040 Thirty-eight percent, give or take of spending within the city 327 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,908 budget is police, fire. 328 00:13:28,908 --> 00:13:31,110 EMS takes up a whole   other section of that. 329 00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:33,112 Again, Rick, you've been there. 330 00:13:33,112 --> 00:13:36,249 Do people want quick response   from their fire department? 331 00:13:36,249 --> 00:13:38,451 They want the crime   problem addressed. 332 00:13:38,451 --> 00:13:40,920 All that costs money. 333 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,489 How, you know, when you're   weighing those kinds of issues 334 00:13:43,489 --> 00:13:47,427 in an administration, you   know, you've got somebody who's 335 00:13:47,427 --> 00:13:49,429 putting in their life   on the line every day. 336 00:13:49,429 --> 00:13:52,899 Do they not deserve   a lifetime pension, 337 00:13:52,899 --> 00:13:54,300 a pretty generous pension? 338 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:56,703 I mean, it's not like somebody   who is just a clerk at a, 339 00:13:56,703 --> 00:13:58,705 you know, typing   somewhere at a company. 340 00:13:58,705 --> 00:14:00,640 It's a different type of job. 341 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,709 And that's sort of it the point   that the unions are screaming 342 00:14:02,709 --> 00:14:05,745 about right now that   these are not typical jobs. 343 00:14:05,745 --> 00:14:08,247 So, you can't look at the spending and these pensions 344 00:14:08,247 --> 00:14:09,482 through a typical lens. 345 00:14:09,482 --> 00:14:10,483 - Yeah. 346 00:14:10,483 --> 00:14:12,485 Traditionally, that's the way it's been approached. 347 00:14:12,485 --> 00:14:15,321 I mean, Memphis is not unusual in that they have a 25 and out 348 00:14:15,321 --> 00:14:16,322 for police and fire. 349 00:14:16,322 --> 00:14:17,824 I mean, that's standard across. 350 00:14:17,824 --> 00:14:21,127 I would venture to say there are very few cities that have -- 351 00:14:21,127 --> 00:14:24,263 vary significantly from that. 352 00:14:24,263 --> 00:14:29,669 You know, when I was CAO, we received calls continuously from 353 00:14:29,669 --> 00:14:33,773 the business community, the crime commission and so forth. 354 00:14:33,773 --> 00:14:36,442 We need more policemen, we need more policemen. 355 00:14:36,442 --> 00:14:39,445 I think they did a study that showed we needed like I want to 356 00:14:39,445 --> 00:14:41,714 say 2,000 or something. 357 00:14:41,714 --> 00:14:42,749 An outrageous number. 358 00:14:42,749 --> 00:14:44,117 Eight hundred, I'm sorry. 359 00:14:44,117 --> 00:14:46,119 Eight hundred new police officers. 360 00:14:46,119 --> 00:14:49,322 And so, there was a clamoring for new police officers. 361 00:14:49,322 --> 00:14:51,057 And that's what drove that. 362 00:14:51,057 --> 00:14:54,494 And yes, I mean, when you hire a police officer, 363 00:14:54,494 --> 00:14:59,332 not only do you pay them but you also accept this liability of a 364 00:14:59,332 --> 00:15:01,067 pension for their life. 365 00:15:01,067 --> 00:15:02,435 - Go ahead, Tom. 366 00:15:02,435 --> 00:15:06,239 - I was just going to say Rick mentioned something about how 367 00:15:06,239 --> 00:15:11,577 the pensions were historically used to counteract low salaries. 368 00:15:11,577 --> 00:15:16,616 And the five year that the city conducted with PFM showed that 369 00:15:16,616 --> 00:15:22,021 some of the jobs are -- pay more than the private sector. 370 00:15:22,021 --> 00:15:23,489 Many are still lower. 371 00:15:23,489 --> 00:15:26,726 It seems like somehow it would -- might in the midst of all of 372 00:15:26,726 --> 00:15:30,530 this someone would look at how do you stabilize or balance 373 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:31,531 those jobs. 374 00:15:31,531 --> 00:15:33,533 If you're going to cut pension benefits, 375 00:15:33,533 --> 00:15:36,068 what salaries do we need to become more competitive? 376 00:15:36,068 --> 00:15:39,939 - Well, and the other one, and it's in the story and it's in 377 00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:42,008 headlines and it gets reported, I'm sure, 378 00:15:42,008 --> 00:15:43,509 some would say over reported. 379 00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:46,646 But the rise in the number of six figure jobs. 380 00:15:46,646 --> 00:15:48,648 The people who make 100,000 and above. 381 00:15:48,648 --> 00:15:51,417 And then the drop program, which was viewed as this really 382 00:15:51,417 --> 00:15:54,320 lucrative huge pay outs to former police director Larry 383 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,622 Godwin, former head of the airport, 384 00:15:56,622 --> 00:15:57,723 Larry Cox. 385 00:15:57,723 --> 00:16:00,593 Talk about those and the perspective on those. 386 00:16:00,593 --> 00:16:03,262 - The drop program, it's the deferred option plan. 387 00:16:03,262 --> 00:16:05,231 And what it is is it.. 388 00:16:05,231 --> 00:16:08,568 A lot of people view it as a golden parachute. 389 00:16:08,568 --> 00:16:12,572 I mean, but someone who has 25 years of service can enter 390 00:16:12,572 --> 00:16:13,573 in to it. 391 00:16:13,573 --> 00:16:14,874 And there are regular.. 392 00:16:14,874 --> 00:16:17,543 They're essentially collecting a salary and a pension 393 00:16:17,543 --> 00:16:18,878 at the same time. 394 00:16:18,878 --> 00:16:22,515 They're paying pension in to an account that when the employee 395 00:16:22,515 --> 00:16:24,183 leaves, they take with them. 396 00:16:24,183 --> 00:16:25,518 But the city stops. 397 00:16:25,518 --> 00:16:30,189 This is kind of the interesting rub of it is that the city stops 398 00:16:30,189 --> 00:16:32,191 making pension contributions to it. 399 00:16:32,191 --> 00:16:35,494 And so, arguably, I don't know if anyone has taken a fine pen 400 00:16:35,494 --> 00:16:36,495 to it. 401 00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:37,496 It's cost neutral. 402 00:16:37,496 --> 00:16:39,498 I mean, it doesn't really cost the city more. 403 00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:43,769 But I think the big question in there is whether it meets its 404 00:16:43,769 --> 00:16:46,005 purpose which is secession planning. 405 00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:49,709 Being able to anticipate when somebody's going to leave and 406 00:16:49,709 --> 00:16:50,910 then replace them. 407 00:16:50,910 --> 00:16:53,946 And what's happened in a lot of these cases is like Alan Benson, 408 00:16:53,946 --> 00:16:54,947 the fire director. 409 00:16:54,947 --> 00:16:58,451 I mean, he signed up for three years and then left like half 410 00:16:58,451 --> 00:17:02,121 way through to a nice paying job with the county and took his 411 00:17:02,121 --> 00:17:03,522 pension and his drop payment. 412 00:17:03,522 --> 00:17:05,525 There's no penalty for leaving early. 413 00:17:05,525 --> 00:17:06,626 And so, you really.. 414 00:17:06,626 --> 00:17:08,628 It really doesn't meet its mandate. 415 00:17:08,628 --> 00:17:11,130 - But your quoted in the article saying people don't understand 416 00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:12,798 it does save the city money. 417 00:17:12,798 --> 00:17:13,799 It looks.. 418 00:17:13,799 --> 00:17:16,469 The political perception of it is terrible but it saves the 419 00:17:16,469 --> 00:17:17,470 city money. 420 00:17:17,470 --> 00:17:20,106 - Yeah because you don't get out of habit to contribute. 421 00:17:20,106 --> 00:17:21,807 You provide the same job. 422 00:17:21,807 --> 00:17:25,478 It's essentially hiring that employee back to do the job and 423 00:17:25,478 --> 00:17:27,880 you don't have to pay them any benefits. 424 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,116 It's parts that were implemented incorrectly. 425 00:17:30,116 --> 00:17:32,151 These employees should be treated like new employees. 426 00:17:32,151 --> 00:17:36,522 Like if they were employees that were just brought in to finish 427 00:17:36,522 --> 00:17:37,890 out this job for three years. 428 00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:40,927 And I think in terms of secession planning, 429 00:17:40,927 --> 00:17:42,929 I think it's good in fire and police. 430 00:17:42,929 --> 00:17:47,767 The trouble is you know you're going to lose X number of police 431 00:17:47,767 --> 00:17:48,834 officers or firefighters. 432 00:17:48,834 --> 00:17:52,672 And you really do need the lead time to do that. 433 00:17:52,672 --> 00:17:55,841 What happens is budgetary considerations get in the way. 434 00:17:55,841 --> 00:17:57,577 So, you have this information. 435 00:17:57,577 --> 00:18:01,414 You know we're going to lose X number of police officers, 436 00:18:01,414 --> 00:18:03,182 X number of fire fighters. 437 00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:05,051 We have to have a training class because there's a lot of lead 438 00:18:05,051 --> 00:18:06,252 time in hiring these folks. 439 00:18:06,252 --> 00:18:07,753 But you can't do it because the budget won't let you. 440 00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:09,588 - Go ahead, Marlin. 441 00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:18,864 - Another thing that happened is we confused health benefits for 442 00:18:18,864 --> 00:18:20,766 retirees with pensions. 443 00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:22,702 Those are not the same thing. 444 00:18:22,702 --> 00:18:30,109 And the law changed between '08 and today on health benefits. 445 00:18:30,109 --> 00:18:35,247 Health benefits were always treated as if they were paid out 446 00:18:35,247 --> 00:18:36,782 of current budget money. 447 00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:43,089 It was not considered that you needed to budget for future 448 00:18:43,089 --> 00:18:45,992 health benefits. 449 00:18:45,992 --> 00:18:47,226 And that changed. 450 00:18:47,226 --> 00:18:48,928 I mean, it changed nationally. 451 00:18:48,928 --> 00:18:56,235 And now part of that liability is that they have to fund that 452 00:18:56,235 --> 00:19:00,406 future liability where before they were just simply funding 453 00:19:00,406 --> 00:19:02,274 the current amount each year. 454 00:19:02,274 --> 00:19:04,477 And the rules changed. 455 00:19:04,477 --> 00:19:05,644 The accounting rules changed. 456 00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:11,751 - And just to piggyback, there was an OPEB amount in 1980. 457 00:19:11,751 --> 00:19:13,185 Okay? 458 00:19:13,185 --> 00:19:14,186 It was there. 459 00:19:14,186 --> 00:19:15,187 It just wasn't recognized. 460 00:19:15,187 --> 00:19:18,624 But there was a liability that was existing for the city 461 00:19:18,624 --> 00:19:19,625 of Memphis. 462 00:19:19,625 --> 00:19:21,694 And it probably was a pretty big number in 1980. 463 00:19:21,694 --> 00:19:24,163 And here we are in 2015. 464 00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:25,264 The city hasn't gone bankrupt. 465 00:19:25,264 --> 00:19:29,001 But that was a large OPEB number that existed in 1980. 466 00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:31,570 And, you know, that's something. 467 00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:32,772 I'm glad you brought that up. 468 00:19:32,772 --> 00:19:33,773 - I'm sorry. 469 00:19:33,773 --> 00:19:34,774 Go ahead. 470 00:19:34,774 --> 00:19:39,745 - But to me, it raises a question about the accounting 471 00:19:39,745 --> 00:19:41,347 for both of these. 472 00:19:41,347 --> 00:19:44,283 I mean, currently the city is not under any state requirement 473 00:19:44,283 --> 00:19:45,584 on OPEB. 474 00:19:45,584 --> 00:19:48,921 It likely will be at some point. 475 00:19:48,921 --> 00:19:51,857 But you have to show this on the financials. 476 00:19:51,857 --> 00:19:56,495 And the argument that the unions have made is there's no way that 477 00:19:56,495 --> 00:19:58,497 all those employees are going to, 478 00:19:58,497 --> 00:20:02,068 in the case of the pension, retire all at one time. 479 00:20:02,068 --> 00:20:05,638 Is it legitimate that local governments have to show this 480 00:20:05,638 --> 00:20:09,508 and have to pay for it now? 481 00:20:09,508 --> 00:20:12,745 - I mean, I think it.. 482 00:20:12,745 --> 00:20:16,148 The way I thought it should have been implemented is whatever was 483 00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:19,185 on the books at that point in time should have been somewhat 484 00:20:19,185 --> 00:20:21,187 grandfathered in in some fashion. 485 00:20:21,187 --> 00:20:24,957 And then any additional benefit packages that were added to the 486 00:20:24,957 --> 00:20:28,728 retirees that that council, that administration was responsible 487 00:20:28,728 --> 00:20:30,730 for, they should have to fund that. 488 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:33,933 But to just sort of have this catch up over 20-something, 489 00:20:33,933 --> 00:20:36,902 30-something years that had been building up 490 00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:38,170 and started way back. 491 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:40,773 I mean, this is something that started in.. 492 00:20:40,773 --> 00:20:43,676 The council at one point I think in the '80s were talking about 493 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:44,910 free insurance retirees. 494 00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:45,911 You remember. 495 00:20:45,911 --> 00:20:48,247 They passed that resolution to have free insurance 496 00:20:48,247 --> 00:20:49,248 for retirees. 497 00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:52,451 So, can you imagine what the OPEB would have been for that? 498 00:20:52,451 --> 00:20:56,155 So, I mean, I think there should have been some sort of grace 499 00:20:56,155 --> 00:20:58,724 period or some sort of recognition of this or 500 00:20:58,724 --> 00:21:01,594 grandfathering in this amount and then going forward to cause 501 00:21:01,594 --> 00:21:04,463 cities to make sure that when they approved a benefit, 502 00:21:04,463 --> 00:21:07,600 a long term benefit, they actually have to wait and come 503 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,869 up with some way to fund it. 504 00:21:09,869 --> 00:21:12,738 - Well, we've heard a lot on the show about people. 505 00:21:12,738 --> 00:21:15,307 And we're going to have to switch to police. 506 00:21:15,307 --> 00:21:17,309 But people on the show are saying, 507 00:21:17,309 --> 00:21:20,179 "Look, I mean, the health benefits now that the city 508 00:21:20,179 --> 00:21:22,781 employees have is so much better than the private sector." 509 00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:24,884 I mean, so that argument we talked about before with the 510 00:21:24,884 --> 00:21:27,853 pensions and it was a retention thing because the pay was lower. 511 00:21:27,853 --> 00:21:29,855 Well, now it's really kind of shifted. 512 00:21:29,855 --> 00:21:30,856 I think most of us.. 513 00:21:30,856 --> 00:21:32,925 I mean, certainly those of us in the newspaper industry have seen 514 00:21:32,925 --> 00:21:34,293 our deductibles go sky high. 515 00:21:34,293 --> 00:21:36,295 And that's just a general trend. 516 00:21:36,295 --> 00:21:38,964 And so, I think it's interesting to see the frustration people 517 00:21:38,964 --> 00:21:39,965 have with that. 518 00:21:39,965 --> 00:21:42,301 But let's switch to one of the big drivers. 519 00:21:42,301 --> 00:21:43,435 We mentioned this before. 520 00:21:43,435 --> 00:21:46,772 And I think they put the chart up which was police department 521 00:21:46,772 --> 00:21:47,773 spending going from.. 522 00:21:47,773 --> 00:21:50,142 These are inflation adjusted dollars from about 100 million 523 00:21:50,142 --> 00:21:52,378 in 1970 to 230 million, 240 million now. 524 00:21:52,378 --> 00:21:56,048 And a lot of that took place in the -- it's on the chart -- 525 00:21:56,048 --> 00:21:58,851 during the Herenton administration. 526 00:21:58,851 --> 00:22:01,020 Because there was this huge rise in violent crime. 527 00:22:01,020 --> 00:22:03,822 I mean, there was a sense that that was driving people out of 528 00:22:03,822 --> 00:22:04,823 the city. 529 00:22:04,823 --> 00:22:06,825 We get back to the population loss and so on. 530 00:22:06,825 --> 00:22:10,162 You were all quoted considerations at that time. 531 00:22:10,162 --> 00:22:14,033 I mean, really painful anecdotes in the story about the shootings 532 00:22:14,033 --> 00:22:15,201 and the killings and so on. 533 00:22:15,201 --> 00:22:18,237 And the way to address that was to double the size of 534 00:22:18,237 --> 00:22:20,272 essentially the police department. 535 00:22:20,272 --> 00:22:21,273 - Yeah. 536 00:22:21,273 --> 00:22:23,409 I mean, we talk about responsive government. 537 00:22:23,409 --> 00:22:25,411 We were trying to be responsive. 538 00:22:25,411 --> 00:22:27,413 As I said earlier, I received a number of calls and the mayor 539 00:22:27,413 --> 00:22:29,448 received a number of calls from business leaders across the 540 00:22:29,448 --> 00:22:34,854 community demanding, expecting us to hire more police officers 541 00:22:34,854 --> 00:22:37,022 to address the rise in crime issue. 542 00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:40,659 And it declined there for some period of time. 543 00:22:40,659 --> 00:22:44,697 You know, I think it somewhat paid dividends because in the 544 00:22:44,697 --> 00:22:47,866 mid-2000, after all these police officers are on board and 545 00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:50,436 actually out there working, it did decline. 546 00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:54,874 I think there is something to say about crime prevention as 547 00:22:54,874 --> 00:22:58,644 initiatives that should be implemented along with that. 548 00:22:58,644 --> 00:23:00,179 We tried some of those things. 549 00:23:00,179 --> 00:23:03,282 You know, community policing and so forth. 550 00:23:03,282 --> 00:23:08,854 And I think, you know, trying to address crime in any city, 551 00:23:08,854 --> 00:23:12,558 major city across this country has always been and will always 552 00:23:12,558 --> 00:23:16,495 continue to be a challenge as we saw in the headlines today. 553 00:23:16,495 --> 00:23:19,231 So, it's something that we need to continue to fight. 554 00:23:19,231 --> 00:23:22,201 We felt like we needed to address it by hiring 555 00:23:22,201 --> 00:23:23,202 new police officers. 556 00:23:23,202 --> 00:23:24,203 I think it helped. 557 00:23:24,203 --> 00:23:27,206 But at the end of the day, I think we also have to have some 558 00:23:27,206 --> 00:23:28,207 preventative measures. 559 00:23:28,207 --> 00:23:30,409 - Again, cities, some perspectives around the country. 560 00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:32,845 I mean, the perception of crime and the reality of crime 561 00:23:32,845 --> 00:23:33,912 sometimes are different. 562 00:23:33,912 --> 00:23:35,914 But it's a huge issue in Memphis. 563 00:23:35,914 --> 00:23:37,916 But it's an issue in any kind of urban city. 564 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,918 I mean, it killed New York in the '70s. 565 00:23:39,918 --> 00:23:43,555 - Yeah, Memphis's violent crime rate and high violent crime rate 566 00:23:43,555 --> 00:23:46,025 goes back a hundred years almost. 567 00:23:46,025 --> 00:23:48,093 Memphis has just always had that. 568 00:23:48,093 --> 00:23:50,863 It's just part of the culture for some reason. 569 00:23:50,863 --> 00:23:56,902 But the city's own five year financial plans said that 570 00:23:56,902 --> 00:24:01,140 compared to cities that size, Memphis is an outlier in the 571 00:24:01,140 --> 00:24:05,277 size of its police force compared to other cities. 572 00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:10,382 And so, even after the Herenton administration increased the 573 00:24:10,382 --> 00:24:13,786 police personnel and budget, it seemed 574 00:24:13,786 --> 00:24:15,721 like the arms race continued. 575 00:24:15,721 --> 00:24:20,693 And so, Memphis today is essentially public safety poor. 576 00:24:20,693 --> 00:24:23,629 If you take all the sales taxes that the city of Memphis 577 00:24:23,629 --> 00:24:26,665 collects, all the property taxes the city of Memphis collects, 578 00:24:26,665 --> 00:24:30,469 you're still $70 million short in funding police and fire. 579 00:24:30,469 --> 00:24:35,874 - It's pretty interesting, too, because Rick brings up the build 580 00:24:35,874 --> 00:24:37,476 up that we went through. 581 00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:39,478 In the 1980s during the Hackett administration, 582 00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:44,450 there were also calls from the business community including a 583 00:24:44,450 --> 00:24:49,555 study that was funded by Ira Lichman from Guardsmark that 584 00:24:49,555 --> 00:24:53,959 basically made the case that the city needed more police officers 585 00:24:53,959 --> 00:24:55,194 then in the 1980s. 586 00:24:55,194 --> 00:25:00,899 And the Hackett administration was pretty vocal in saying that 587 00:25:00,899 --> 00:25:03,302 he didn't think that was the right strategy. 588 00:25:03,302 --> 00:25:06,839 He didn't agree with that at all. 589 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:09,975 - Marc, I don't mean to give you the last word. 590 00:25:09,975 --> 00:25:10,976 Where are now? 591 00:25:10,976 --> 00:25:12,177 They're trying to grow. 592 00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:15,347 Financial problems aside, they're trying to get back to a 593 00:25:15,347 --> 00:25:17,349 comparable environment of 2,600. 594 00:25:17,349 --> 00:25:19,351 - And they're having problems retaining people. 595 00:25:19,351 --> 00:25:21,920 We keep hearing that, you know, because of the reduced health 596 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,922 care benefits, officers are leaving. 597 00:25:23,922 --> 00:25:25,924 They're being recruited by other cities. 598 00:25:25,924 --> 00:25:27,926 And so, it's a constant struggle. 599 00:25:27,926 --> 00:25:29,928 But, I mean, this is one of these things, 600 00:25:29,928 --> 00:25:30,929 you know. 601 00:25:30,929 --> 00:25:32,931 Is the glass half full or half empty? 602 00:25:32,931 --> 00:25:34,933 You have these budgetary constraints but, 603 00:25:34,933 --> 00:25:36,935 you know, public safety is priority number one. 604 00:25:36,935 --> 00:25:38,937 And if you don't have that, you don't have anything. 605 00:25:38,937 --> 00:25:39,938 So, um, you know. 606 00:25:39,938 --> 00:25:41,974 - The current budget increases the police budget $16 million. 607 00:25:41,974 --> 00:25:44,209 - Alright, we will leave it there. 608 00:25:44,209 --> 00:25:45,210 Tom Jones. 609 00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,212 Marc Perrusquia, it's a great series of stories. 610 00:25:47,212 --> 00:25:49,214 Thank you and to everyone at the CA. 611 00:25:49,214 --> 00:25:51,216 Marlin Mosby, Masson, Bill Dries. 612 00:25:51,216 --> 00:25:52,217 Thank you all. 613 00:25:52,217 --> 00:25:53,218 Thank you for joining us. 614 00:25:53,218 --> 00:25:54,319 Join us again next week. 615 00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:58,056 Goodnight. 616 00:25:58,056 --> 00:26:11,670 [theme music] 617 00:26:11,670 --> 00:26:14,373 (male narrator)   DHG is a full service   accounting firm serving 618 00:26:14,373 --> 00:26:17,309 Memphis and the Mid-South region   for more than 60 years combining 619 00:26:17,309 --> 00:26:20,145 community involvement with   the technical resources of a 620 00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:21,246 national firm. 621 00:26:21,246 --> 00:26:25,384 For more information   visit DHGLLP.com. 622 00:26:25,384 --> 00:26:29,384 CLOSED CAPTIONING PROVIDED BY WKNO, MEMPHIS.