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(female announcer)  
Production funding for  
Behind the Headlines

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is made possible in part by..

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- Police Director Mike Rallings 
tonight on Behind the Headlines.

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[theme music]

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I'm Eric Barnes, publisher of 
The Memphis Daily News.

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Thanks for joining me.

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I am joined tonight 
by Michael Rallings,

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newly appointed police director 
for Memphis Police Department.

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Thanks for being here.

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- Thank you for having me.

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(Eric)  
Along with Bill Dries, 
senior reporter with The Memphis

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Daily News.

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You were named 
interim in February.

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You got the job 
about a month ago.

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We'll talk about 
all kinds of things,

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even towards the 
end of the show,

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a little bit of time looking 
back on being up on the bridge

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in the summer and all of that.

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But right now, for the 
first part of the year,

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you know, the real headline 
has been the murder rate.

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Violent crime as a whole, I 
think the most recent numbers..

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It's leveled off.

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It's up a little bit, one 
percent or so from last year.

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But the murder rate is 
up 40 or 50 percent.

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You know, why is that?

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What is your take of why that 
murder rate spiked so much and

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what can you and your 
officers do about it?

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- Well, you know, the answer to 
the first part of the question,

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I think that we're all trying 
to figure that our across the

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nation.

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I'm a member of the Major 
City Chiefs Association.

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Last I checked, 44 
cities, major cities,

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have spiked in 
homicides this year.

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Last year there were probably 30 
cities that had a spike and we

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didn't.

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So, working with 
Major City Chiefs,

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other agencies across the 
nation and also the FBI.

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We're kind of diving into what 
is pushing our violent crime.

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Locally, you know, the 
legislature has not helped us

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with guns in cars.

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I kind of share that everywhere 
I go because access to guns,

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gangs, drugs, more violent 
subculture within that group I

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think has led to our 
increase in homicide rates.

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Recently, we found out that 
probably 42% of our homicide

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victims are gang members 
or have gang affiliation.

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So, we're taking a deep dive 
into that working with the

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University of Memphis to look 
at five years of homicides so we

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can instead of just 
coming up with anecdotal data,

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that we can really look at 
it and have some specifics.

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Partner with the academics to 
look and see what we can do to

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change it.

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- And I think I've heard you say 
that most murders are between

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people who know each 
other, is that correct?

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- Without a doubt.

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- And so, is there a strange way 
in which people listening should

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feel somewhat safer in the sense 
that if you don't know someone

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who is selling 
drugs, doing drugs,

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I mean kind of 
engages in a gang member,

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that although the media puts 
these murder headlines out

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there, I mean what is the 
message that people who aren't

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engaged in gangs, 
drugs and so on?

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- The message to 
everyone is to be safe because,

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you know, somewhere between 
18 to 20 percent of domestic

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violence related.

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So, these are people 
that are family members.

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They're engaged in 
sensitive relationships.

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Some of them are married.

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We just saw recently, 
you know, girlfriend,

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boyfriend, husband, wife.

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So, I think that, you know, 
yes, I agree with what you said.

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But I think that as a community 
we have to make a decision on

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what type of life 
we want to live.

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And I think that there's so 
much attraction to violence.

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It's on TV.

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It's on reality TV.

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It's in sports.

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It's unfortunately 
in the legislature.

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We see congressmen 
and senators, you know,

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talking about violence.

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And we see some of it spilling 
over to our national election.

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So, we as a country, as a 
community need to decide what we

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want to do, what's acceptable.

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The level of violence 
for me is unacceptable.

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We should all be outraged.

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- Bill?

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- You talked about the 
percentage of homicides that

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involve gang members or 
some kind of gang affiliation.

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Is that higher than 
it's been in the past?

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- I'm not so sure we really have 
dove over to that in the past.

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That's something we started 
looking at very hard this year.

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So, unless..

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You know, that's what the 
five-year study is about.

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To go back and look and really 
do a deep dive in homicides.

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- And the reason I bring it up 
is because Chicago has had a

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tremendous problem.

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And one of the things that 
people there have talked about

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is that the 
discipline, if you will,

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among the gangs or the kind of 
tension that gang leaders have

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been able to diffuse or block 
off ha somewhat disintegrated

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and people think that's an 
element of what's happening in

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Chicago.

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- I can agree with that.

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I was in Chicago probably a 
month ago meeting with Chicago

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police and a number of other 
police chiefs from around the

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nation.

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And those are some of the 
things we talked about.

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What we're seeing 
now is there's no..

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The traditional gang 
structure, we're not seeing.

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There are a lot of 
hybrid gangs of,

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you know, a 
mixture of gang members.

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So, the traditional challenges, 
the traditional responses that

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we've had, we're going to have 
to look at them and come up with

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something different to respond 
to this new type of involvement

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that we're in.

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- what were some of the 
traditional responses that you

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think are going 
to have to change?

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But traditionally you would do..

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- Well, if you got a 
gang with structure,

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okay?

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Then you can, you know, really 
look hard at the leadership at

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that particular.

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But if you got a whole 
mixture of gangs just kind of..

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- Maybe they say they're 
more affiliated but they're not

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necessarily a hierarchy in 
the way gangs used to be.

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- Yes.

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- So, a lot of discussion over 
the last couple of years about

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the number of police.

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There were a lot 
of people who left.

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I think the police force 
maxed out around 24-- or 2500.

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Mayor Strickland ran on that 
he wants to get back to that

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number.

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He's talked about it 
since he's been in office.

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To you, is there a magic number?

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I know Strickland has said 
2400 and that's your goal.

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But to you, I mean, 
what is that number?

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- 2500 without a doubt.

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I've been a police chief 
of uniformed patrol to both

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districts.

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I started in 2009.

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I was trained commander in 2008.

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The number is 2500.

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Some people debate it.

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But again, they haven't been in 
the trenches like me and these

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men and women have.

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- What does that do for you?

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If you had a magic 
wand and you had,

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what would that be?

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Four or five hundred more 
police officers tomorrow.

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What would you do different?

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- Well first of all, we'll have 
adequate staffing to run our

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day-to-day operations.

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I mean, that's critical.

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With the addition 
of police officers,

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you know, we have 
five priorities.

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One of them is 
community outreach.

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We could do more 
community outreach,

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have a higher police presence, 
focus more on gangs and target

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kind of our top four crimes 
to make our community safer.

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You know, every day I talk 
about us not having staff.

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But every day we get more 
requests for police officers.

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So, you know, to respond to 
what the community wants,

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then we need to have 
staffing to do that.

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- So, I think there was just a 
promotion ceremony this week as

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we speak.

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Promotions are on the way.

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Last I heard, the academy class 
started at around a hundred and

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was down to 24, which is a 
problem that I think all police

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directors have faced because you 
can start out with a hundred.

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But you're usually not going 
to get a hundred in an academy

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class to go on to the streets.

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- Yeah, Bill, I'm not sure where 
you got those numbers from.

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Our goal was a hundred and 
we started somewhere in the

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forties.

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So, you know, our 
attrition rate,

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you know, runs between 
ten to fifteen percent.

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You don't want everybody 
to start and graduate.

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There's probably something 
went wrong with the program.

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But again, we're 
looking at everything.

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We're looking at what 
we're doing in recruiting and

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retention., We're looking 
at what we're teaching,

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what our curriculum is, what we 
cna do to attract good men and

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women to the Memphis 
Police Department.

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- How do you think police 
recruits people who say I want

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to be a police officer?

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How are they different from 
when you made that decision?

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- You know what?

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I'm not sure if they're 
fundamentally different.

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You know, I'm 50 now.

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So, I joined when I 
was in the twenties.

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So, definitely my eyes and what 
I know is a lot different than

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when I started.

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However, you know what?

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In talking to the recruits 
and talking to the PSTs,

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you know, these individuals 
are still committed to making a

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positive difference 
in the community.

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They're standing up 
to the challenge.

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You know, our last class, I've 
spent a lot of time with them.

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I'm able to talk to them and 
thank them for their commitment,

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thank them for their sacrifice, 
thank them for their desire to

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do something 
different than others,

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you know, may aspire to do but 
may not be qualified to do it.

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So, I think they're 
fundamentally the same.

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I think the nation is different.

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You know, we have mass 
media, social media,

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24-hour news cycle.

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There's more scrutiny on law 
enforcement than I remember any

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time in my career.

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So, we have a lot of challenges.

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But we still have men and women 
that are ready to step up to the

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challenge.

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- Does the faster 
pace of how things move,

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does it change the notion of 
patrolling and is community

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policing as a result 
of that, as a goal,

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is the nature of 
community policing different?

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Because there is that 
kind of connection.

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And word on the street 
travels much faster.

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- First, we have to define 
what community policing is.

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Because, you know, it means 
different things in different

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parts of the country.

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So, it can even mean different 
things in the city depending on

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who's asking.

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So, everything is different.

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You know, police 
officers are wearing body cams.

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We have 400 in 
car video systems.

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We'll have fully deployed our 
body cams before the year is

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out.

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You know, there's 
cell phone video.

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There's video everywhere.

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And like I said, the level 
of scrutiny is different.

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So, yes, it changes the 
behavior of the police officers.

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It definitely changes the 
behavior of the public.

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But, you know, we want officers 
to get out in the community.

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We want them to meet people.

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You know, sit and talk.

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It's a challenge when you 
answer a million calls a year.

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Two million calls come 
into our 911 call center.

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So, we're one of the 
busiest places in our region,

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if not the busiest.

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And we have to try to 
figure out what that balance is.

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And that's why that staffing 
question you asked earlier is so

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important because staffing 
allows you to respond to the

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high volume of calls.

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It allows you to respond to 
the crime and it allows you to

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respond to the 
needs of the community.

245
00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:12,138
- Politicians will 
say that legislators,

246
00:11:12,138 --> 00:11:15,775
city councilmen, come to me 
when you don't have a problem.

247
00:11:15,775 --> 00:11:17,777
Let me get to know you 
before you have a problem.

248
00:11:17,777 --> 00:11:19,779
Is that part of what 
you're talking about,

249
00:11:19,779 --> 00:11:21,781
that if you have more 
police on the streets,

250
00:11:21,781 --> 00:11:23,783
they can be out, they can 
see people when there's not a

251
00:11:23,783 --> 00:11:24,784
problem.

252
00:11:24,784 --> 00:11:26,786
They can get to know people so 
that when that call comes in,

253
00:11:26,786 --> 00:11:27,787
there's more of a connection?

254
00:11:27,787 --> 00:11:28,788
- Yes, without a doubt.

255
00:11:28,788 --> 00:11:30,790
- Scrutiny, you 
talked about scrutiny.

256
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:32,792
Some of that, a lot of 
that comes for Ferguson,

257
00:11:32,792 --> 00:11:35,662
what happening in Ferguson and 
this whole national conversation

258
00:11:35,662 --> 00:11:40,333
and national spotlight on 
police shootings and the role of

259
00:11:40,333 --> 00:11:41,334
police.

260
00:11:41,334 --> 00:11:42,335
Your take on that?

261
00:11:42,335 --> 00:11:44,737
I've heard people describe quote 
the Ferguson effect two ways.

262
00:11:44,737 --> 00:11:47,807
That one, for police it makes 
them hesitant and it makes them

263
00:11:47,807 --> 00:11:49,542
hesitant to respond.

264
00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:51,911
They don't know what kind 
of scrutiny they're under.

265
00:11:51,911 --> 00:11:54,781
They don't know what kind of 
doubt and skepticism they might

266
00:11:54,781 --> 00:11:55,782
face.

267
00:11:55,782 --> 00:11:58,551
And then it also potentially 
has an effect on people who in

268
00:11:58,551 --> 00:12:01,220
communities that 
see a lot of crime,

269
00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:03,222
they don't have a 
trust in the police,

270
00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:05,325
that that's another way o 
defining the Ferguson effect.

271
00:12:05,325 --> 00:12:08,595
Do you see either or both of 
those things as a result of all

272
00:12:08,595 --> 00:12:11,364
this scrutiny of what's the 
proper role of police and when

273
00:12:11,364 --> 00:12:14,767
police can and 
should shoot someone and,

274
00:12:14,767 --> 00:12:16,936
you know, draw 
their weapon and so on?

275
00:12:16,936 --> 00:12:19,973
- You asked me a 
couple questions.

276
00:12:19,973 --> 00:12:21,708
- That whole debate.

277
00:12:21,708 --> 00:12:23,943
- Let's start at the top.

278
00:12:23,943 --> 00:12:27,380
You know, Director Conley came 
out strongly talking about the

279
00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:28,948
Ferguson effect.

280
00:12:28,948 --> 00:12:32,952
So, you know, there's a number 
of individuals kind of diving

281
00:12:32,952 --> 00:12:35,655
into that, trying to see 
is that a real effect.

282
00:12:35,655 --> 00:12:38,925
So, let's just look at it 
from a common sense standpoint.

283
00:12:38,925 --> 00:12:42,829
If anybody is scrutinized, 
every single move they make,

284
00:12:42,829 --> 00:12:45,565
everything they say, everything 
they do is scrutinized to the

285
00:12:45,565 --> 00:12:47,567
level that we see 
law enforcement,

286
00:12:47,567 --> 00:12:50,603
it's going to impact the 
decisions they make and the

287
00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:53,006
performance of their duties.

288
00:12:53,006 --> 00:12:56,509
Law enforcement is more 
responsive to change,

289
00:12:56,509 --> 00:13:00,880
more responsive to criticism 
than almost any incident in the

290
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,315
United States.

291
00:13:02,315 --> 00:13:04,684
You know, we are accountable 
to the people we serve.

292
00:13:04,684 --> 00:13:07,887
So, we think about what 
happened after Ferguson.

293
00:13:07,887 --> 00:13:12,025
Let's look at it just from a 
strictly economic standpoint

294
00:13:12,025 --> 00:13:15,061
where we've seen 
many, many more protests,

295
00:13:15,061 --> 00:13:19,999
which means that we're 
devoting resources to protest.

296
00:13:19,999 --> 00:13:22,802
Those resources are 
not in the community.

297
00:13:22,802 --> 00:13:26,305
They're not doing their normal 
patrol duties because they are

298
00:13:26,305 --> 00:13:28,007
responding to protests.

299
00:13:28,007 --> 00:13:31,711
Think about the almost eight 
million dollars spent just in

300
00:13:31,711 --> 00:13:34,347
Ferguson alone 
during those protests.

301
00:13:34,347 --> 00:13:38,217
You know, you think this year 
we spent at least eight million

302
00:13:38,217 --> 00:13:42,655
dollars on the various protests 
that we've had in our protective

303
00:13:42,655 --> 00:13:45,491
posture after we've seen 
eight police officers killed.

304
00:13:45,491 --> 00:13:48,428
Biggest attack on law 
enforcement since 9/11.

305
00:13:48,428 --> 00:13:50,763
That affects your 
ability to police.

306
00:13:50,763 --> 00:13:53,433
Talk about body 
cameras and, you know,

307
00:13:53,433 --> 00:13:54,834
all the cell phone video.

308
00:13:54,834 --> 00:13:59,439
But what I would ask people to 
do is when there is a incident,

309
00:13:59,439 --> 00:14:02,075
allow an 
investigation to go through.

310
00:14:02,075 --> 00:14:04,444
You know, we call for a DOJ.

311
00:14:04,444 --> 00:14:05,945
We call for all these things.

312
00:14:05,945 --> 00:14:08,715
We call TBI to 
investigate our shootings.

313
00:14:08,715 --> 00:14:11,684
So, allow the 
investigation to go through.

314
00:14:11,684 --> 00:14:13,686
Let's review the facts.

315
00:14:13,686 --> 00:14:16,723
Where changes need to be 
made, we'll be responsive.

316
00:14:16,723 --> 00:14:18,725
We'll address those 
and make changes.

317
00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:20,993
- For you and for your 
officers, body cameras,

318
00:14:20,993 --> 00:14:22,995
you mentioned, those 
are rolling out delayed,

319
00:14:22,995 --> 00:14:24,997
but they're rolling 
out sometime this year.

320
00:14:24,997 --> 00:14:29,435
Does that give a police officer 
comfort or is it because there's

321
00:14:29,435 --> 00:14:31,437
a back up to what 
they say happened?

322
00:14:31,437 --> 00:14:32,438
This is what happened.

323
00:14:32,438 --> 00:14:33,439
This is what my camera shows.

324
00:14:33,439 --> 00:14:36,876
Or does it make them feel 
monitored and hesitant?

325
00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,979
What's the reaction among most 
police officers to having a body

326
00:14:39,979 --> 00:14:40,980
camera on?

327
00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:42,982
- Well, I'll answer 
your last thing first.

328
00:14:42,982 --> 00:14:43,983
We're sitting on live TV.

329
00:14:43,983 --> 00:14:45,985
So, everything we 
do is monitored.

330
00:14:45,985 --> 00:14:48,888
So, you know, if we 
sneeze or drop the ink pen,

331
00:14:48,888 --> 00:14:50,189
the whole world would see it.

332
00:14:50,189 --> 00:14:52,391
So, yes, it makes 
them feel monitored.

333
00:14:52,391 --> 00:14:55,094
But when I talk to 
officers on the street,

334
00:14:55,094 --> 00:14:57,797
talked to an officer the other 
day and I saw he had his body

335
00:14:57,797 --> 00:14:58,798
camera on him.

336
00:14:58,798 --> 00:14:59,799
I asked him how it was going.

337
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:01,501
He said, I love it.

338
00:15:01,501 --> 00:15:02,502
I was kind of puzzled.

339
00:15:02,502 --> 00:15:04,504
I wasn't 
expecting that from him.

340
00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:06,506
I said a couple more 
things and he said,

341
00:15:06,506 --> 00:15:07,707
love it.

342
00:15:07,707 --> 00:15:08,708
I said, wow.

343
00:15:08,708 --> 00:15:10,510
Why do you love it?

344
00:15:10,510 --> 00:15:14,781
He said, it keeps us accountable 
and it keeps them accountable,

345
00:15:14,781 --> 00:15:15,782
too.

346
00:15:15,782 --> 00:15:18,317
I had a guy waving a cell 
phone in front o my face.

347
00:15:18,317 --> 00:15:20,319
Said, I'm recording 
you, I'm recording you.

348
00:15:20,319 --> 00:15:23,156
And he said, well sir, I have a 
public service announcement for

349
00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:24,157
you.

350
00:15:24,157 --> 00:15:25,391
I'm recording you, too.

351
00:15:25,391 --> 00:15:27,860
He said the guy 
suddenly calmed down.

352
00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:30,429
They were able to talk about 
whatever he was there for.

353
00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:34,100
So, again, we're 
definitely embracing body camera

354
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:35,101
technology.

355
00:15:35,101 --> 00:15:37,103
The officers that I 
talk to love them.

356
00:15:39,372 --> 00:15:42,742
- Let's talk about the police 
department's response to the

357
00:15:42,742 --> 00:15:44,243
protest that we've seen.

358
00:15:44,243 --> 00:15:50,449
I'll start with the 
candlelight vigil at Graceland.

359
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:55,454
There was some discussion about 
who was responsible for what

360
00:15:58,090 --> 00:15:59,091
there.

361
00:15:59,091 --> 00:16:02,829
Your police department in 
determining who was a protestor,

362
00:16:02,829 --> 00:16:04,163
who was there for the vigil.

363
00:16:04,163 --> 00:16:10,570
What did the officers rely on 
in terms of that judgement?

364
00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:14,674
- Well, you know, first, there 
is some pending litigation or

365
00:16:14,674 --> 00:16:15,675
could be.

366
00:16:15,675 --> 00:16:17,777
So, I really want 
to talk about that.

367
00:16:17,777 --> 00:16:20,012
What I want to 
talk about it that,

368
00:16:20,012 --> 00:16:23,850
you know, we had a plan where we 
would work at Graceland to keep

369
00:16:23,850 --> 00:16:25,117
that event safe.

370
00:16:25,117 --> 00:16:27,854
We had a number of 
threats of protests.

371
00:16:27,854 --> 00:16:30,623
And it wasn't we're 
going to protest.

372
00:16:30,623 --> 00:16:34,727
It was we're going to 
disrupt that candlelight vigil.

373
00:16:34,727 --> 00:16:38,064
And so, I'm proud of the 
response the men and women of

374
00:16:38,064 --> 00:16:41,500
the Memphis Police Department, 
Graceland Enterprises had to

375
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:43,002
keep that event safe.

376
00:16:43,002 --> 00:16:45,738
Just yesterday I 
received a card from someone,

377
00:16:45,738 --> 00:16:49,675
I think form England that was 
here visiting and thanked us for

378
00:16:49,675 --> 00:16:53,713
our presence, our ability 
to keep that event safe.

379
00:16:53,713 --> 00:16:56,449
So, again, I'm 
proud of what we did.

380
00:16:56,449 --> 00:16:59,852
I'm proud that we 
walked away from that day,

381
00:16:59,852 --> 00:17:02,421
no one hurt, very few arrests.

382
00:17:02,421 --> 00:17:07,326
And Graceland was intact just 
as it was before we started.

383
00:17:07,326 --> 00:17:13,232
- So, do you think there was 
a threat beyond what actually

384
00:17:13,232 --> 00:17:15,468
happened there that evening?

385
00:17:15,468 --> 00:17:16,602
- Great question, Bill.

386
00:17:16,602 --> 00:17:18,704
Think about what's 
happened over the world.

387
00:17:18,704 --> 00:17:19,705
Nice, France.

388
00:17:19,705 --> 00:17:25,978
Truck runs down fireworks, kind 
of a Fourth of July celebration

389
00:17:25,978 --> 00:17:28,814
like we see here, 
runs over, you know.

390
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:31,751
You know, I can't remember how 
many people were ran over and

391
00:17:31,751 --> 00:17:32,752
killed.

392
00:17:32,752 --> 00:17:34,754
So, we're on Elvis 
Presley Boulevard,

393
00:17:34,754 --> 00:17:35,888
a major thoroughfare.

394
00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:37,857
So, we were worried about that.

395
00:17:37,857 --> 00:17:41,460
We've seen international and 
domestic terrorist attacks.

396
00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:44,463
We've all forgotten that 
49 Americans were killed in

397
00:17:44,463 --> 00:17:45,464
Orlando.

398
00:17:45,464 --> 00:17:48,734
Biggest attack on 
America since 9/11.

399
00:17:48,734 --> 00:17:51,037
Well, I don't forget 
about those things.

400
00:17:51,037 --> 00:17:54,740
You know, we just celebrated 
or commemorated the 15th

401
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:56,275
anniversary of 9/11.

402
00:17:56,275 --> 00:17:58,678
The country has been 
at 15 years of war.

403
00:17:58,678 --> 00:18:02,081
So, the threat of 
international terrorism is real.

404
00:18:02,081 --> 00:18:05,151
The threat of 
domestic terrorism is real.

405
00:18:05,151 --> 00:18:08,821
The threat of violence is every 
present and it's our job to

406
00:18:08,821 --> 00:18:11,190
respond to that, 
to mitigate that.

407
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:14,327
Keep our visitors and our 
citizens safe and that's exactly

408
00:18:14,327 --> 00:18:15,795
what we did.

409
00:18:15,795 --> 00:18:20,466
- Is there a point at which 
you look at the preparations for

410
00:18:20,466 --> 00:18:22,969
these events knowing that 
there's going to be some kind of

411
00:18:22,969 --> 00:18:23,970
protest?

412
00:18:23,970 --> 00:18:26,639
Is there a point at which you 
look at the preparations and

413
00:18:26,639 --> 00:18:30,576
say, I think we maybe too..

414
00:18:30,576 --> 00:18:33,879
Is there such a thing as being 
too visible in terms of the

415
00:18:33,879 --> 00:18:38,451
police presence when you 
have that kind of a situation?

416
00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:40,453
- Well, there's a 
balance, you know.

417
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:42,755
First of all, we don't know 
every single thing that people

418
00:18:42,755 --> 00:18:43,923
are planning.

419
00:18:43,923 --> 00:18:45,925
Let's take Southern 
Heritage Classic.

420
00:18:45,925 --> 00:18:48,494
We had a very heavy police 
presence in and around the

421
00:18:48,494 --> 00:18:50,763
stadium, in and 
around the tailgates,

422
00:18:50,763 --> 00:18:53,766
in and around Beale Street 
because we want our visitors and

423
00:18:53,766 --> 00:18:57,069
our citizens to come 
enjoy venues and be safe.

424
00:18:57,069 --> 00:19:00,039
So, public safety is something 
we work on every single day.

425
00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:02,008
We're going to remain vigilant.

426
00:19:02,008 --> 00:19:04,010
We're going to do 
what we think is good.

427
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:06,779
And there's always a balance 
and you have to decide what that

428
00:19:06,779 --> 00:19:07,913
balance is.

429
00:19:07,913 --> 00:19:10,683
But when you have, you know, 
threats that are articulated,

430
00:19:10,683 --> 00:19:15,521
you know that there's the 
ever-presence of kind of unrest

431
00:19:15,521 --> 00:19:19,792
or violence because, you know, 
you may decide that you're going

432
00:19:19,792 --> 00:19:23,629
to protest, you know, not 
parking on the grass or being up

433
00:19:23,629 --> 00:19:24,997
another recent one.

434
00:19:24,997 --> 00:19:29,702
Someone else may come up and 
have a weapon or have a more

435
00:19:29,702 --> 00:19:33,973
nefarious plan that 
you're not partied to.

436
00:19:33,973 --> 00:19:37,076
But when you get people 
gathering and there's a threat,

437
00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:39,945
it's our job to stand 
there and protect people.

438
00:19:39,945 --> 00:19:43,149
Protect their right to protest, 
protect their right to assemble.

439
00:19:43,149 --> 00:19:46,685
We just want everything to be 
done lawfully and in order.

440
00:19:46,685 --> 00:19:52,224
- What has the dialog been like 
since July 10 when we had the

441
00:19:52,224 --> 00:19:59,065
bridge protest, kind of the 
really important moment in the

442
00:19:59,065 --> 00:20:00,633
whole discussion of this?

443
00:20:00,633 --> 00:20:03,769
Has the discussion been able 
to continue between you and the

444
00:20:03,769 --> 00:20:06,839
protest leaders or 
what's that dialog been like?

445
00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:09,241
- There have been a 
number of conversations.

446
00:20:09,241 --> 00:20:11,343
So, you know, the 
Mayor's taken a lot.

447
00:20:11,343 --> 00:20:13,579
I want to applaud the 
Mayor for his openness,

448
00:20:13,579 --> 00:20:15,648
his responsiveness.

449
00:20:15,648 --> 00:20:19,385
We have responded to every 
single thing that the protestors

450
00:20:19,385 --> 00:20:20,386
have put on the table.

451
00:20:20,386 --> 00:20:22,621
We will continue the dialog.

452
00:20:22,621 --> 00:20:26,625
I've met with anyone who wants 
to meet and we will continue to

453
00:20:26,625 --> 00:20:28,727
do those things 
because, you know,

454
00:20:28,727 --> 00:20:30,329
like I told on the bridge.

455
00:20:30,329 --> 00:20:32,798
Okay, bridge is shut down.

456
00:20:32,798 --> 00:20:34,100
What's your next goal?

457
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:37,870
What do you want to accomplish 
in the next 30 minutes to the

458
00:20:37,870 --> 00:20:39,371
next hour?

459
00:20:39,371 --> 00:20:41,373
And Director, we want 
this, we want that.

460
00:20:41,373 --> 00:20:44,543
I said, do you think we're going 
to accomplish that standing in

461
00:20:44,543 --> 00:20:46,178
this bridge?

462
00:20:46,178 --> 00:20:47,413
And my thing was simple.

463
00:20:47,413 --> 00:20:49,582
We can't talk on this bridge.

464
00:20:49,582 --> 00:20:50,750
It's not safe.

465
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:51,984
There are children up here.

466
00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:53,986
There are women.

467
00:20:53,986 --> 00:20:54,987
There are men.

468
00:20:54,987 --> 00:20:57,990
The bridge is made 
for cars and trucks.

469
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:59,992
It's not made for 
pedestrian traffic.

470
00:20:59,992 --> 00:21:01,360
We have to get off this bridge.

471
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,362
That's exactly what we did.

472
00:21:03,362 --> 00:21:05,698
We can talk 'til we 
are blue in the face.

473
00:21:05,698 --> 00:21:09,435
But once you protest, you got to 
come to the table and talk and

474
00:21:09,435 --> 00:21:11,770
work out and say, 
okay, what do we want.

475
00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:12,771
What are the goals?

476
00:21:12,771 --> 00:21:13,772
How do we get there?

477
00:21:13,772 --> 00:21:16,675
Because that is a process.

478
00:21:16,675 --> 00:21:18,677
- We got just five minutes left.

479
00:21:18,677 --> 00:21:20,679
We can talk about the 
bridge a whole lot more.

480
00:21:20,679 --> 00:21:22,681
But I'm going to shift 
on because right now,

481
00:21:22,681 --> 00:21:25,284
the marijuana ordinance the 
city council has proposed to

482
00:21:25,284 --> 00:21:28,821
decriminalizes certain 
amounts of marijuana.

483
00:21:28,821 --> 00:21:32,491
You've been opposed 
to, at best weary,

484
00:21:32,491 --> 00:21:33,492
of this ordinance.

485
00:21:33,492 --> 00:21:34,493
Is that a fair way to say it?

486
00:21:34,493 --> 00:21:36,262
And tell me why.

487
00:21:36,262 --> 00:21:38,297
Tell me your concerns 
about the ordinance.

488
00:21:38,297 --> 00:21:40,132
- I have a number of concerns.

489
00:21:40,132 --> 00:21:42,201
First of all, as 
the police director,

490
00:21:42,201 --> 00:21:44,403
I'm not going to 
promote marijuana smoking.

491
00:21:44,403 --> 00:21:47,573
We have an epidemic of 
drugs sweeping the nation.

492
00:21:47,573 --> 00:21:51,944
We can line up folks on both 
sides of the table and talk

493
00:21:51,944 --> 00:21:53,946
about is 
marijuana a gateway drug.

494
00:21:53,946 --> 00:21:57,316
Well, I tell you what 
I see on the street.

495
00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:01,287
So, on the street, you know, 
marijuana becomes a secondary.

496
00:22:01,287 --> 00:22:04,557
When an officer 
makes a stop, sees guns,

497
00:22:04,557 --> 00:22:07,927
you know, a person has warrants 
and they have marijuana in their

498
00:22:07,927 --> 00:22:08,928
pocket.

499
00:22:08,928 --> 00:22:12,097
Or officer makes a stop, 
individual rolls down the

500
00:22:12,097 --> 00:22:15,067
window, marijuana 
smoke comes barreling out.

501
00:22:15,067 --> 00:22:19,071
So, that's just from what we 
see and the interaction with

502
00:22:19,071 --> 00:22:20,072
marijuana.

503
00:22:20,072 --> 00:22:22,508
The second point is, you know, 
someone said it the other day.

504
00:22:22,508 --> 00:22:25,144
And, you know, if 
you're standing,

505
00:22:25,144 --> 00:22:27,213
sitting at home, 
smoking marijuana all day,

506
00:22:27,213 --> 00:22:29,915
get up in the morning and smoke, 
it's going to be very hard for

507
00:22:29,915 --> 00:22:31,450
you to be productive.

508
00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:34,854
I want to encourage young 
people to seek employment,

509
00:22:34,854 --> 00:22:37,957
gain employment and 
maintain the employment.

510
00:22:37,957 --> 00:22:41,160
Marijuana probably is not going 
to help you outside of that

511
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,963
subculture where 
drug use is okay.

512
00:22:43,963 --> 00:22:45,931
We're in a heroin epidemic.

513
00:22:45,931 --> 00:22:50,336
We have over 70 
deaths from heroin.

514
00:22:50,336 --> 00:22:52,571
So, when I talk to 
people that are doing rehab,

515
00:22:52,571 --> 00:22:58,477
drug rehab specifically, they 
talk about how marijuana gets

516
00:22:58,477 --> 00:23:00,579
people to a tougher drug.

517
00:23:00,579 --> 00:23:03,582
Start smoking marijuana, 
may graduate with the pills.

518
00:23:03,582 --> 00:23:06,085
From pills maybe to heroin.

519
00:23:06,085 --> 00:23:09,021
- I don't think anyone would 
debate that heroin and pill and

520
00:23:09,021 --> 00:23:11,824
crack epidemic that 
the country has seen.

521
00:23:11,824 --> 00:23:12,825
Cocaine.

522
00:23:12,825 --> 00:23:14,827
But, you know, certain states 
have legalized marijuana at this

523
00:23:14,827 --> 00:23:15,828
point.

524
00:23:15,828 --> 00:23:17,830
And that seems to be the 
trend in the country is that,

525
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:20,299
you know, more and more states 
are legalizing it saying that

526
00:23:20,299 --> 00:23:21,300
that's just not an issue.

527
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:22,301
It's like alcohol.

528
00:23:22,301 --> 00:23:23,302
People can abuse alcohol.

529
00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:24,303
They can abuse alcohol.

530
00:23:24,303 --> 00:23:26,272
Alcohol can lead to alcoholism.

531
00:23:26,272 --> 00:23:28,274
But you see a more 
direct connection.

532
00:23:28,274 --> 00:23:30,209
- Yes, very poor comparison.

533
00:23:30,209 --> 00:23:32,711
The jury is still out.

534
00:23:32,711 --> 00:23:34,713
At one time, we 
believed the world was flat.

535
00:23:34,713 --> 00:23:37,549
And people would not go out and 
venture so they wouldn't fall

536
00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:38,651
off the side of the earth.

537
00:23:38,651 --> 00:23:41,820
So, we need to really 
slow down and let the jury,

538
00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:43,222
you know, come out and see.

539
00:23:43,222 --> 00:23:48,227
Because in Colorado, they've had 
increases in DUI where marijuana

540
00:23:48,227 --> 00:23:51,530
was the drug of choice.

541
00:23:51,530 --> 00:23:54,333
They've seen increases in 
violence related to marijuana.

542
00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:56,969
But let me get back to the 
ordinance since we're here in

543
00:23:56,969 --> 00:23:57,970
Memphis.

544
00:23:57,970 --> 00:24:00,306
You know, originally the 
ordinance did not allow the

545
00:24:00,306 --> 00:24:01,607
option of discretion.

546
00:24:01,607 --> 00:24:05,477
The officers ability to 
have discretion is critical.

547
00:24:05,477 --> 00:24:07,112
That was changed.

548
00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:11,016
I still have, you know, a little 
apprehension about the amounts.

549
00:24:11,016 --> 00:24:12,017
- Discretion to do what?

550
00:24:12,017 --> 00:24:14,019
And I apologize 
for interrupting.

551
00:24:14,019 --> 00:24:16,755
- Discretion to go with a 
state charge or issue a city

552
00:24:16,755 --> 00:24:17,756
ordinance.

553
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:22,428
Because the thing about it is 
the officer on the street has to

554
00:24:22,428 --> 00:24:24,730
look at the circumstance.

555
00:24:24,730 --> 00:24:30,269
So, you know, is the marijuana 
packaged for individual sale?

556
00:24:30,269 --> 00:24:32,705
Is there a gun?

557
00:24:32,705 --> 00:24:36,875
Are there other charges where 
one court should hear the whole

558
00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:39,945
thing versus breaking 
it out in other courts?

559
00:24:39,945 --> 00:24:42,448
- Just a couple of minutes left 
and we talk about a show about

560
00:24:42,448 --> 00:24:44,450
the issues I'll 
bring up right now.

561
00:24:44,450 --> 00:24:47,419
Part of the motive of Martavius 
Jones on the city council has

562
00:24:47,419 --> 00:24:50,356
said that this is partly to 
take some of these small level

563
00:24:50,356 --> 00:24:54,360
offenses that disproportionately 
affect African-Americans,

564
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,362
particularly young 
African-American men,

565
00:24:56,362 --> 00:24:58,364
and start them down the 
road of criminal justice.

566
00:24:58,364 --> 00:25:00,799
Take away for the 
second the path to heroin.

567
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:02,835
But just small 
amounts of marijuana.

568
00:25:02,835 --> 00:25:04,370
They liken it to taillights.

569
00:25:04,370 --> 00:25:05,604
Three hundred dollar fines.

570
00:25:05,604 --> 00:25:06,839
Suspended licenses.

571
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:09,808
All those small offenses 
that begin to pile up fines,

572
00:25:09,808 --> 00:25:12,177
begin to pile up 
a night in jail,

573
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:13,746
two nights in jails.

574
00:25:13,746 --> 00:25:15,881
And does, from your point 
of view as a police officer,

575
00:25:15,881 --> 00:25:19,251
does there need to be reform 
of those small offenses that,

576
00:25:19,251 --> 00:25:21,253
again, so many 
people are saying,

577
00:25:21,253 --> 00:25:23,655
look, this is hitting the 
African-American community

578
00:25:23,655 --> 00:25:24,656
particularly hard.

579
00:25:24,656 --> 00:25:26,859
- Well I'm 
African-American if you noticed.

580
00:25:26,859 --> 00:25:28,894
I am concerned about 
everything that impacts the

581
00:25:28,894 --> 00:25:29,962
African-American community.

582
00:25:29,962 --> 00:25:32,598
I'm definitely committed 
to reducing the amount of

583
00:25:32,598 --> 00:25:35,267
African-Americans that 
enter into the criminal justice

584
00:25:35,267 --> 00:25:36,268
system.

585
00:25:36,268 --> 00:25:41,640
So, the only thing I ask for 
is let Nashville figure out how

586
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,041
this is going to run.

587
00:25:43,041 --> 00:25:48,447
Give them time to work it out in 
terms of their ordinance that's

588
00:25:48,447 --> 00:25:51,083
moving through metro.

589
00:25:51,083 --> 00:25:54,420
Metro and Memphis are two 
different entities because Metro

590
00:25:54,420 --> 00:25:56,422
has a consolidated government.

591
00:25:56,422 --> 00:25:59,992
Memphis, you're talking 
about general sessions court and

592
00:25:59,992 --> 00:26:01,994
you're talking about city court.

593
00:26:01,994 --> 00:26:04,596
But the other issue is just 
to make sure we have robust

594
00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:07,966
conversation, we bring everybody 
to the table so we make an

595
00:26:07,966 --> 00:26:09,334
educated decision.

596
00:26:09,334 --> 00:26:10,335
- We are out of time.

597
00:26:10,335 --> 00:26:12,337
We could have talked about 
that for 20 more minutes.

598
00:26:12,337 --> 00:26:13,338
Thank you for being here.

599
00:26:13,338 --> 00:26:14,339
Thank you, Bill.

600
00:26:14,339 --> 00:26:15,340
Thank you for joining us.

601
00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:20,345
Join us again next week.

602
00:26:22,748 --> 00:26:27,753
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