THE ORIGIN OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS AMONG A HOST OF ISSUES DRIVING A WEDGE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE WEST.
U.S. DEVELOPMENT INSIDER JAMIE M METZL WARNED LAWMAKERS NOT TO DISMISS THE IDEA THAT THE VIRUS LEAKED FROM A CHINESE LAB.
HE SPEAKS WITH HAR I SREENIVASA ABOUT WHAT COULD HAVE SPARKED THE PANDEMIC.
>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
EARLIER THIS WEEK, YOU TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF A HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ORIGINS OF THE CORONAVIRUS.
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THAT QUESTION?
>> IT'S THREE YEARS AFTER THE START OF THIS TERRIBLE, DEADLY PANDEMIC.
20 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DEAD.
UNDERSTANDING WHAT WENT WRONG MUST BE THE FOUNDATION OF OUR EFFORTS TO SHORE UP OUR VULNERABILITIES AND MAKE SURE THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.
WE'RE ENTERING A NEW ERA OF SYNTHETIC BIOLOGY WHERE WE CAN IMAGINE PANDEMICS MUCH DEADLIER THAN COVID-19.
IF WE DON'T FEARLESSLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WENT WRONG AND FIX OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS, FUTURE GENERATIONS OR EVEN OURSELVES A FEW YEARS FROM NOW ARE GOING TO BE SAYING, WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THE HARD WORK NOW WHEN YOU COULD?
>> ONE OF THE QUOTES IN YOUR TESTIMONY SAID, "THERE IS NO SMOKING GUN PROVING A LAB ORIGIN HYPOTHESIS, BUT THE GROWING BODY OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTS A GUN THAT AT THE VERY AT LEAST IS WARM TO THE TOUCH."
WHAT LEADS YOU TO THAT CONCLUSION?
>> IT'S REALLY A GROWING BODY OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE.
I, AS YOU KNOW, HAD THOSE SUSPICIONS EARLIEST ON.
BUT RIGHT NOW THE PANDEMIC STARTED IN WUHAN.
WE KNOW THAT THE ANCESTRAL ORIGIN IS A VIRUS THAT WAS LIVING IN HORSESHOE BATS.
THESE KIND OF HORSESHOE BATS AREN'T IN WUHAN.
IT'S MORE THAN A THOUSAND MILES AWAY FROM THEIR NATURAL RANGE.
WHAT YOU DO HAVE IN WUHAN IS THE FIRST LEVEL 4 VIROLOGY LAB WITH THE COLLECTION OF CORONAVIRUSES THAT WAS DOING EXPERIMENTS INSERTING CLEAVAGE SITES.
BASICALLY THE CELLULAR MACHINERY ALLOWING VIRUSES TO INFECT HUMANS IN SARS-LIKE VIRUSES.
LO AND BEHOLD, WE HAVE THE ONLY KNOWN SARS-LIKE VIRUS EVER THAT HAS THIS HUMAN SPECIFIC SITE THAT DOESN'T SHOW UP IN SOUTHERN CHINA WHERE YOU THINK SOMETHING LIKE THIS MIGHT IF IT EVOLVED NATURALLY.
BUT IN WUHAN, OF ALL THE PLACES IN THE WORLD, I JUST THINK THE OVERWHELMING CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE WEIGHS IN FAVOR OF A POSSIBLE RESEARCH RELATED ORIGIN.
BUT WE NEED A FULL INVESTIGATION.
IF THERE'S ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT CONVINCES ME OTHERWISE, I'LL HAPPILY CHANGE MY VIEW.
>> RIGHT NOW THAT THEORY HAS BEEN BOLSTERED BY YET ANOTHER U.S. AGENCY.
THE ENERGY ADMINISTRATION CAME OUT AND SAID THEY HAD WITH LOW CONFIDENCE AN IDEA THIS IS WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.
NOW, WHAT'S STRANGE, I THINK, FOR AMERICANS IS WHY THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT AGENCIES THAT HAVE SUCH DIFFERENT VIEWS ON THIS.
I MEAN, THE DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE OR SHOULD I BELIEVE THE FBI, SHOULD I BELIEVE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, SHOULD I BELIEVE THE NIH OR THE CDC?
SOME OF THOSE AGENCIES SAY THIS IS ZOONOTIC OR IT CAME FROM AN ANIMAL TO HUMANS AND IT WASN'T MAYBE FROM A LAB.
>> IT'S HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT THAT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY SHIFTED ITS VIEW OVER TIME FROM THINKING IT PROBABLY COMES FROM NATURE TO IT PROBABLY COMES FROM A LAB.
MOST PEOPLE THINK THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS LIKE THE ELECTRIC COMPANY, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY OVERSEES THE 17 U.S. NATIONAL LABORATORIES.
IT'S ONE OF THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS OF SCIENTISTS IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING SOME OF THE MOST SOPHISTICATED SCIENTISTS INCLUDING BIOLOGISTS IN THE WORLD.
SO THAT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT.
THE UNITED STATES HAS MANY DIFFERENT INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.
WE WANT THEM ALL TO BE DIGGING.
THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN OVERHANG OF THE INTELLIGENCE FAILURES PRECEDING THE IRAQ WAR THAT HAVE INSTILLED A LEVEL OF CAUTION IN MANY OF OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.
BUT THE BASIC FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT CHINA HAS DONE EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT THE KIND OF FULL INVESTIGATION THAT'S REQUIRED.
THEY'VE DESTROYED SAMPLES, HIDDEN RECORDS, IMPRISONED CHINESE JOURNALISTS FOR ASKING BASIC QUESTIONS.
THEY HAVE A GAG ORDER ON CHINESE SCIENTISTS.
THEY'VE PREVENTED NATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS.
SO WE'RE TRYING TO PIECE TOGETHER A STORY WHILE CHINA IS AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO COVER UP THAT STORY.
IN MY MIND, THAT'S A PIECE OF EVIDENCE ITSELF.
WE DON'T WANT, AS WE EXPERIENCED IN IRAQ, WE DON'T WANT OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS PREMATURELY.
WHAT WE DO WANT IS THEM TO BE DIGGING AGGRESSIVELY AS WE MOVE TO TRY TO GET THE RIGHT ANSWER.
>> LET'S TALK A BIT ABOUT THE TIME AND PLACE OF WHEN THIS THEORY GAINED TRACTION.
YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS AS A POSSIBILITY.
BUT REALLY 2 1/2 YEARS AGO OR SO, WHEN THAT THOUGHT AND IDEA CAME INTO THE PUBLIC SPHERE, IT WAS OUTRIGHT REJECTED BY SOME SCIENTISTS, BUT IT WAS ALSO LOOKED AT THROUGH A VERY POLITICAL LENS.
WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE DID WE DO TO OURSELVES?
>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WHEN I STARTED MAKING THIS CASE, I REALLY STARTED LOOKING IN LATE JANUARY OF 2020, JANUARY 24th OF 2020 THERE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER IN THE BRITISH JOURNAL "THE LANCET" WHICH SHOWED MORE THAN A THIRD OF THE EARLIEST CASES OF COVID-19 WERE OF PEOPLE WHO HAD NO EXPOSURE TO THE SEAFOOD MARKET IN WUHAN.
IN THE EARLY DAYS, IN FEBRUARY AND MARCH IN 2020, THERE WERE THESE HIGH PROFILE LETTERS, ONE IN THE LANCET AND ANOTHER IN THE NATURE MEDICINE CALLING PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO WERE RAISING ESSENTIAL COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS ABOUT PANDEMIC ORIGINS, CONSPIRACY THEORISTS FOR NOT FALLING INTO LINE FOR THIS UNPROVEN HYPOTHESIS THAT IT CAME FROM NATURE OR FROM A MARKET.
IT WAS REALLY JUST VERY DISCOURAGING AT THAT TIME.
SO THERE WAS JUST A SMALL HANDFUL OF US AND WE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE BULLIED INTO SILENCE OR SUBMISSION.
SO WE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD OVER THE COURSE OF THAT YEAR.
I REACHED OUT TO SO MANY SCIENCE EDITORS AND JOURNALISTS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AROUND THE WORLD SAYING, HEY, YOU'RE MISSING THE STORY, HERE'S THE EVIDENCE THAT I'M COMPILING.
REALLY IN EARLY 2021, WHEN THAT STORY STARTED TO BREAK, OUR COMMUNITY, WHICH OTHERS HAVE CALLED THE PARIS GROUP, WE ISSUED OPEN LETTERS THAT WERE FEATURED IN PRETTY MUCH EVERY MAJOR NEWSPAPER AROUND THE WORLD.
THERE STARTED TO BE MORE OF AN OPEN CONVERSATION.
I THINK THE WORLD HAS STARTED TO SHIFT TO THE POINT THAT YESTERDAY IN THESE HEARINGS WHERE THERE WAS COMPLETE CONSENSUS AMONG THE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES, EVERYBODY AGREED THAT A LAB ORIGIN WAS A VERY CREDIBLE HYPOTHESIS.
SO NOW THAT ISSUE IS ALMOST ONE THAT'S A CREDIBLE HYPOTHESIS.
WE STILL THESE A COMPREHENSIVE INVESTIGATION WITH FULL ACCESS TO ALL THE RELEVANT DATA.
>> SO HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS PERHAPS BECAUSE OF ONE OF THE MESSENGERS OR PROPONENTS OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, BECAUSE HE COATED HIS WORDS AND PHRASES ABOUT THIS VIRUS IN LANGUAGE THAT SO MANY PEOPLE FOUND DETESTABLE AND RACIST AND THAT THIS THEORY THAT IT CAME FROM THE LAB STARTED TO ATTRIBUTE SOMETHING THAT WAS UNPALATABLE TO POLITICAL OPPONENTS.
>> YEAH.
SO I'M A PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT.
I WAS A FIERCE CRITIC OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
I WAS COMPLETELY UNHAPPY AND VOCALLY SO WITH A LOT OF WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID AND SAID, AND I COMPLETELY DISTRUSTED HIS MOTIVES.
BUT AS A THINKING PERSON, I DIDN'T THINK THAT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO THAT WAS TO FEEL, WELL, IF TRUMP SAYS SOMETHING, THEN I NEED TO SAY AND BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE.
SO FOR ME, WHEN I STARTED LOOKING AT THIS, I WAS SEEING A STORY THAT JUST COINCIDENTALLY WAS CONNECTED IN THE EARLIEST DAYS WHILE DONALD TRUMP WAS EFFUSIVE IN HIS PRAISE OF PRESIDENT XI JINPING AND WHEN THINGS STARTED TO GO SOUTH, THE STORY CHANGED.
OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T TRUST THOSE MOTIVES.
MY VIEW WAS LET'S TRY TO GET TO THE RIGHT ANSWER REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICS.
I KNOW THAT FRIEND OF MINE REACHED OUT TO ME AND SAID WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOUR NARRATIVE IS SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP.
I KEPT SAYING THIS ISN'T ABOUT TRUMP OR ANYBODY ELSE.
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE DYING.
THIS IS ABOUT GETTING TO THE RIGHT ANSWER.
I DO THINK THAT ALSO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GOT INTO THIS HABIT THAT I THINK BECAME A LITTLE BIT LAZY, WELL, TRUMP SAYS SOMETHING AND THEN WE HAVE A FACT CHECK STORY WHICH SAYS HERE'S WHAT TRUMP SAID AND HERE'S WHY IT'S LYING AND WE'RE GOING TO ADD THIS TO THE LIST THAT THE "WASHINGTON POST" AND OTHERS WERE KEEPING OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OUTRIGHT LIES.
BUT EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY.
IN MY VIEW, IT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNINFORMED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO BE POSSIBLY TRUE AND HE SAID IT IN A TERRIBLE WAY.
THAT'S WHY I THINK THIS TRIBALISM OF HOW WE THINK AND PROCESS AND PRESENT INFORMATION IS REALLY DANGEROUS.
IF WE ALL JUST BECOME MIRROR IMAGES OF THE OPPOSITION, WE'RE IN DANGER AND OUR DEMOCRACY IS IN DANGER.
>> YOU ALSO TESTIFIED NEXT TO DR. REDFIELD, WHO RAN THE CDC UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
HOW HAVE YOU FOUND THIS KIND OF BIPARTISANSHIP?
>> IT'S A SITUATION IN MANY WAYS OF STRANGE BEDFELLOWS, BUT I THINK PEOPLE OF ALL POLITICAL PERSUASIONS WHO ARE DEDICATED TO FINDING THE RIGHT ANSWER ARE KIND OF ON THE SAME SIDE.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS A LOT OF POLITICS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS ISSUE.
BUT OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST THREE YEARS, I'VE COLLABORATED WITH PEOPLE ON THE LEFT, PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT, WITH DEMOCRATS, WITH REPUBLICANS.
ONE OF MY CLOSEST INTERLOCUTORS IS A UNITED STATES SENATOR ROGER MARSHALL FROM KANSAS.
SENATOR MARSHALL AND I DISAGREE ON A LOT OF TOPICS, BUT ON THE ISSUE OF SHOULD WE OR SHOULD WE NOT DIG TO FIND OUT HOW COVID-19 BEGAN, WE'RE SURPRISINGLY AND VERY MUCH ON THE SAME PAGE, NOT TO MENTION THAT WE'RE BOTH KANSAS CITY CHIEFS FANS.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT A COMMISSION LIKE THIS IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET TO THAT CORE QUESTION ABOUT ORIGINS WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF CHINA?
>> I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.
I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT IF WE DON'T INVESTIGATE, WE'LL LIKELY NOT GET THE ANSWER.
IF WE DO FULLY INVESTIGATE, WE MAY GET THE ANSWER.
AND IN ADDITION, WE WILL ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE THAT IT'S JUST NOT OKAY TO HAVE IN MANY WAYS A POLITICAL PANDEMIC AND THEN JUST PREVENT AN INVESTIGATION.
THE REASON WHY I CALL THIS A POLITICAL PANDEMIC, BECAUSE FOR THOSE OF US WHO THINK A RESEARCH RELATED ORIGIN IS MORE LIKELY AND EVEN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT A MARKET ORIGIN IS MORE LIKELY, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE SUPPRESSION AND AGGRESSIVE SUPPRESSION OF INFORMATION PARTICULARLY IN THE EARLY DAYS BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS WHAT ALLOWED A STOVE FIRE TO BECOME A KITCHEN FIRE TO BECOME A RAGING GLOBAL INFERNO.
>> REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE INVESTIGATION GOES IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS SPECIFIC PANDEMIC, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT RESEARCHERS IN CHINA CONTRIBUTE TO THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY OF SCIENCE, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT VIROLOGY, ABOUT AGRICULTURE, ABOUT PHYSICS, ET CETERA.
AND YOU MENTION THAT WE STILL NEED TO HAVE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.
THE PRICE OF THAT CAN'T BE SILENCE.
EXPLAIN.
>> SO EXACTLY AS YOU SAID AND AS I SAID IN MY CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY, SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATIONS WITH AMAZING SCIENTISTS IN CHINA AND AROUND THE WORLD ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.
SOMEBODY GETS WORLD CLASS TREATMENT FOR A TERRIBLE DISEASE LIKE CANCER OR SO MANY OTHER THINGS, WE ARE BENEFITTING FROM SCIENCE EVERYWHERE.
WE REALLY NEED TO CONTINUE TO TREASURE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS AND INVEST IN THEM AND BUILD THEM.
BUT LET'S JUST SAY HYPOTHETICALLY THAT COLLABORATION WITH AND SMALL SCALE FUNDING OF CHINESE SCIENTISTS MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED IN SOME WAY TO THIS TERRIBLY DEADLY PANDEMIC.
WE CAN'T LET THE ANSWER BE, WE SHOULD JUST SHUT DOWN SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATION.
WE NEED SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATION.
WE JUST NEED STRONGER AND BETTER SAFEGUARDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT COLLABORATION AND SCIENCE ITSELF IS AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.
>> IN JANUARY THERE WAS AN EXPERT PANEL WITH THE NATIONAL SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD FOR BIOSECURITY.
THEY VOTED TO TRY TO CREATE STRICTER RULES FOR VIRUS RESEARCH.
I'M WONDERING WHETHER REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF THIS INVESTIGATION, IS THERE SOME WAY THAT THE PLANET OF SCIENTISTS AND PEOPLE WHO DO THIS TYPE OF RESEARCH CAN AGREE ON FIGURING OUT SAFETY MEASURES TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?
I MEAN, IN A WAY, THIS WAS A RELATIVELY TAME VIRUS COMPARED TO WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN RELEASED.
>> THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT OUR WORLD NEEDS STRONGER BIOSAFETY AND BIOSECURITY SYSTEMS, STRUCTURES AND NORMS.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT WE NEED STRONGER TREATIES AND WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER TO DO THOSE THINGS.
BUT THERE'S A REASON WHY WE FULLY INVESTIGATE PLANE CRASHES.
IT ACTUALLY MATTERS HOW A SPECIFIC PLANE CRASHED IN OUR PRIORITIZATION OF OUR RESPONSES.
FURTH FURTHERMORE, IF WE DON'T ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE OF TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY TODAY, THERE'S REALLY NO WAY WE'RE GOING TO ESTABLISH THAT PRINCIPLE FOR TOMORROW.
RIGHT NOW THE SITUATION WE'RE IN IS EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE NORMS AND CULTURES AND REGULATORS IN SOME COUNTRY.
PICK KURDISTAN OR ANY COUNTRY.
THAT'S JUST CRAZY.
WE LIVE IN AN INTERCONNECTED GLOBAL WORLD, BUT WE NEED TO HAVE SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES AND NORMS THAT PROTECT EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE.
>> SO WHAT DO WE DO NEXT?
HOW DO WE PREVENT THE NEXT ONE AND NOT JUST PREVENT THE PANDEMIC, BUT PREVENT THIS SAME TYPE OF THINKING FROM ALLOWING US TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHATEVER HAPPENS.
>> COVID-19 WAS A TERRIBLE CRISIS, BUT IT WAS ALSO A WARNING THAT SOMETHING WORSE COULD HAPPEN THAT COULD BE JUST AROUND THE CORNER.
THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO FAEARLESSY FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT WENT WRONG, NOT JUST THE ORIGINS QUESTION, WHAT WENT WRONG ACROSS THE BOARD.
THEN WE NEED TO WORK TO AGGRESSIVELY LAY A FOUNDATION FOR NEXT STEPS.
THAT'S WHY I'VE CALLED FOR A U.S. NATIONAL COVID-19 COMMISSION.
BUT THIS ISN'T AND CAN'T BE JUST A U.S. ISSUE.
THIS IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.
THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION IS AN INCREDIBLE ORGANIZATION, BUT IT HAS A TINY BUDGET, A VERY WEAK MANDATE AND OTHER KINDS OF PROBLEMS.
WE NEED A STRONGER W.H.O.
WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL PLAN.
AS I SAID EARLIER, IT CANNOT BE THAT WE JUST SAY, OH, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON FROM COVID-19.
BECAUSE IT'S POLITICALLY SO SENSITIVE AND DIFFICULT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK THE MOST BASIC QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THIS CRISIS HAPPENED.
THAT'S LIKE FLYING PLANES AFTER A CRASH WITHOUT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG AND WHETHER OTHER PLANES HAVE THAT SAME VULNERABILITY.
>> JAMIE METZL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> MY PLEASURE.