>>> THREE YEARS AGO, AS THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION WAS PREPARING TO DECLARE COVID-19 A PANDEMIC, SCIENTISTS WERE WEEKS INTO DEVELOPING A VACCINE.
THE DOCTOR WAS PART OF A GROUND BREAKING TEAM TO PRODUCE THE MNRA VACCINE FOR MODERNA AND JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO REFLECT ON THOR LAY DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC AND FUTURE OF THE VACCINE RESEARCH.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND DOCTOR, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> SO I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY NEW YEAR'S EVE RIGHT BEFORE THIS VIRUS STARTED SPREADING IN EARLY 2020 WHEN YOU GOT A CALL OR EMAIL SAYING HEY, WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THIS THING HAPPENS IN CHINA.
TELL ME HOW YOU SPRANG INTO ACTION IN JANUARY AND FEBRUARY OF 2020.
>> I WAS ACTUALLY AN EMAIL.
DECEMBER 31st 2019 FROM MY THEN BOS BOSS AND THE NEWS ARTICLE SAID 20 PEOPLE HAD BECOME SICK FROM A REPIRATORY VIRUS IN CHINA.
WE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS A CORONAVIRUS.
IF IT WERE CORONAVIRUS WE HAD SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE OF HELP WITH THE VACCINE TECHNOLOGY.
I LEFT MY MOM'S HOUSE IN NORTH CAROLINA AND DROVE BACK AND WE ESSENTIALLY JUST GOT TO WORK.
>> HOW DID YOU GET TO WORK.
I KNOW THE CHINESE PUBLISHED SORT OF THE CODING LET US SAY OF THE CORONAVIRUS AND THE SPIKE PROTEIN.
WHAT DID YOU DO ONCE YOU FOUND THAT CODING?
>> RIGHT.
SO THEY PUBLISHED THE SEQUENCE OF THE CORONAVIRUS I BELIEVE JANUARY 10th, 2020 AND AT THAT POINT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS LOOK AT THE SEQUENCE AND SAY OH, LOOK, HERE IS THE PIECE OF THE VIRUS THAT HAS THE SPIKE PROTEIN.
LET US USE THAT PIECE OF THE VIRUS, THAT SPIKE PROTEIN AND ADD THE MUTATIONS NECESSARY TO MAKE IT SPIRAL AND SERVE THAT INSIDE OF A MESSENGER RNA, LIPID AND DELIVER IT.
>> THE MNRA GOES INTO YOUR CELL AND SAYS BUILD PROTEIN.
THAT'S WHAT MNRA HAS DONE FOR A FEW MILLION YEARS I GUESS.
YOU TELL IT TOO BUILD A SPIKE PROTEIN, WHY?
>> THE SPIKE PROTEIN, SEE MY HAND HERE?
>> UH-HUH.
>> IF THIS HAND IS A VIRUS AND THIS IS THE INSIDE, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT GO AND GRAB ON TO YOUR CELLS INSIDE OF YOUR BODY.
SO IF YOU WANT TO BLOCK AN INFECTION OR IF YOU WANT TO I IMPEDE AN INFECTION, YOU HAVE TO SAY LOOK CELLS, THIS IS WHAT THE SPIKE PROTEIN LOOKS LIKE AND THAT'S WHAT THE MNRA DOES.
IT TEACHES CELLS TO MAKE THE SPIKE PROTEIN AND MAKES ANTIBODIES TO BLOCK IT.
>> YOU'VE BEEN AN EXPERT AT SPIKE PROTEINS AND HOW MNRA CAN CREATE THEM.
TELL ME HOW YOU WORKED WITH THE PEOPLE AT MODERNA AND OTHER PLACES AT NIH TO MAKE THE MAKE THE EXACT VACCINE WE'RE USING.
>> TONS OF PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED.
I WAS AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH.
RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AUSTIN WERE INVOLVED IN ENGINEERING THE S 2 P PORTION OF THE SPIKE PROTEIN.
OVER THE YEARS WE WORKED WITH RESEARCHERS AT UNC CHAPEL HILL AND OBVIOUSLY WORKED WITH MODERNA A COMPANY THAT HAS THE PRO PRY TERRY MESSENGER RNA.
WHEN HAPPENED WHEN THIS VACCINE BEGAN, WE CAME TOGETHER AND SAID WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN STUDYING THIS FOR TOO LONG AND WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO.
WE GOT OUR BRAINS TOGETHER AND AT THE NIH WE SAID WE'D MAKE A PROTEIN WITH A GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE AS WE'VE BEEN SHOWING IN MICE AND BE FAST TO MANUFACTURE BECAUSE MODERNA IS GOOD AT MAKING THIS TYPE OF VACCINE.
>> ANOTHER GREAT WOMAN PIONEER IN THIS BIO TECHNOLOGY CAME UP WITH THE CONCEPT OF HOW MNRA COULD WORK IN A HUMAN CELL WITH OTHER PEOPLE.
EXPLAIN HOW YOU BUILT ON HER WORK.
>> RIGHT, THE WORK THAT SHE DID OVER REALLY AN ENTIRE CAREER WHEN SHE WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, SHE DID THE WORK THAT BASICALLY SHOWED HOW WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE MESSENGER RNA AND HIDE FROM THE BODY SO YOU CAN PRESENT A PROTEIN LIKE THE SPIKE PROTEIN TO THE BODY AND GET A REALLY GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE.
THAT WORK THEY PIONEERED OVER THE COURSE OF EVEN 20 YEARS AND ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DECADE PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC THAT REALLY ALLOWED FOR US TO BUILD ON AND THAT'S ONE THING ABOUT SCIENCE IS THAT THERE IS NEVER ONE ISOLATED AH HA MOMENT.
EVERYONE'S WORK COMES TOGETHER WITH SOMETHING IMPORTANT LIKE THIS DURING A PANDEMIC SO WE'RE ABLE TO BUILD OFF EACH OTHER'S KNOWLEDGE.
>> IT WAS IN RECORD TIME THE VACCINE WAS DEVELOPED, RIGHT?
>> I THINK 6 SIX DAYS THIS PARTICULAR VACCINE WENT INTO CLINICAL TRIAL FOLLOWING THE RELEASE OF THE SEQUENCE.
>> TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR YOU HAVING HELPED DEVELOP THIS VACCINE WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TO TAKE THE VACCINE.
>> OH, MAN.
WOW.
I HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED THAT QUESTION IN A VERY LONG TIME.
IT WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL MOMENT I THINK FOR ME AND SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE.
I TOOK MY VACCINE AT THE NIH CLINICAL CENTER AND I REMEMBER FEELING RELIEF AND HOPEFUL AGAIN AND IT WAS A TIME I HAVEN'T SEEN AS MANY PEOPLE LINING UP TO GET THEIR VACCINES AND NOT FEELING ISOLATED AT THAT MOMENT.
IT'S JUST -- YEAH I CAN'T EVEN DESCRIBE HOW THANKFUL I AM FOR THAT VACCINE.
>> THERE IS SUCH POLITICALIZATION FOR THAT VACCINE.
DO YOU THINK SCIENTISTS COULD HAVE AND CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING SCIENCE AND BE MORE OPEN THE WAY THEY EXPLAIN IT?
>> I ABSOLUTELY DO.
WE'RE ALL LEARNING.
I THINK MANY SCIENTISTS INCLUDING MYSELF WERE THRUST INTO THE MEDIA IN THIS MOMENT.
WE BECAME A VOICE FOR OUR WORK.
GENERALLY I'M SPEAKING TO FACULTY OR STUDENTS AT, YOU KNOW, UNIVERIIES LIKE THE ONE I WORK BUT HAVING TO SPEAK TO THE COMMUNITY AND HAVING TO UNDERSTAND AND LISTEN ALSO MORE OVER TO THE COMMUNITY IS A SKILL WE'RE ALL STILL LEARNING AND SO I THINK WITH PRACTICE WE'LL ALL GET THERE.
I ALSO THINK IT WOULDN'T HURT FOR US TO NOT ONLY TALK TO THE COMMUNITY BUT CONTINUE TO TALK TO AND REMIND POLITICS ABOUT OUR DATA AS WELL ON AN ONGOING BASIS, AS WELL.
IT'S ABOUT KEEPING THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN.
>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMMUNICATE NOW, NOW THAT THIS -- WE'RE SORT OF GETTING INTO THE NEW FACE AND ABOUT TO GET OUT OF THE EMERGENCY PHASE OF COVID.
WHAT DO YOU THINK SCIENTISTS SHOULD BE COMMUNICATING ABOUT THE NEED FOR VACCINATIONS IN THE FUTURE.
>> ONE THING I'D REALLY LIKE TO SEE MOVING FORWARD IS WE KEEP THE CONVERSATION AROUND VACCINE EDUCATION AND HOW VACCINES CAN REALLY HELP KEEP OUTCOMES OPEN.
IT'S NOT JUST THE COVID-19 VACCINE.
EVERY SINGLE YEAR WE HAVE SEASONAL INFLUENZA SHOTS, THERE IS AN ENTIRE PORTFOLIO OF INFANT VACCINATIONS AND I JUST TOOK MY TDAP BOOSTER THE OTHER DAY.
THERE IS ALWAYS A VAC TEEN PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT AND COACHING THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN AROUND THEM AND LETTING PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT VACCINES THAT MIGHT BE ON THE HORIZON BEFORE THEY COME OUT IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT AND IN THIS MOMENT PEOPLE WERE LEARNING ABOUT A VACCINE TECHNOLOGY BEING DEVELOPED IN THEIR FACE AND SO I THINK IT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO MAKE REALTIME DECISIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY CHOSE TO GET THE VACCINE OR NOT AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
WAKING UP ONE DAY AND BEING CALLED BY YOUR DOCTOR, NOW WE HAVE AN RSV VACCINE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE IT?
WE NEED TO BE INFORMING PEOPLE IN REALTIME ABOUT THE SCIENCE.
>> WHAT VACCINES SHOULD WE BE LOOKING FORWARD TO, RSV -- >> RSV.
I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT.
I'M EXCITED ABOUT IT BECAUSE A LOT OF THE WORK THAT WENT INTO DEVELOPING THAT VACCINE ACTUALLY CAME FROM THE LABORATORY AND MY COLLABORATORS, JASON AND THAT WORK ACTUALLY REALLY WAS A STEP STOOL TO THE WORK WE DID WITH CORONAVIRUSES.
I TRUST WHOLE HEARTEDLY IN THE TECHNOLOGY.
RSV, I THINK PROBABLY SOONER THAN LATER WILL HAVE A NEW AND IMPROVED FLU VACCINES THAT WILL START TO COME OUT.
OH, MAN, THERE IS A TON OF VACCINES IN THE PIPELINE.
>> YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN CLINICAL TRIALS.
I WAS PART OF A CLINICAL TRIAL FOR THE MRNA VACCINE MYSELF -- >> REALLY?
THANK YOU.
>> IT WAS SORT OF FUN.
IT FELT LIKE YOU WERE CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY.
>> YEAH.
>> A BIT.
CAN YOU TELL PEOPLE WHY THEY SHOULD MAYBE VOLUNTEER TO BE PART OF CLINICAL TRIALS?
>> SO, YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY DON'T LIKE TO TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY SHOULD VOLUNTEER OR NOT VOLUNTEER FOR CLINICAL TRIALS.
WHAT I DO LIKE TO SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT THE PARTICIPATION IN CLINICAL TRIALS IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE TO YOU.
IF YOU FIND YOURSELF WANTING TO GIVE BACK, REALLY INTERESTED IN NEW MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES OR NEW MEDICINES, IF YOU FIND YOURSELF REALLY CONNECTED TO A PARTICULAR DISEASE, YOU CAN GO TO CLINICAL TRIALS.GOV AND SEARCH THAT DISEASE AND SEARCH THAT MEDICAL ELEMENT, SEARCH THAT MEDICINE AND MOST LIKELY, THERE IS A CLINICAL TRIAL SITE NEAR YOU AND YOU CAN PARTICIPATE AND IT IS A GREAT WAY TO GIVE BACK TO SCIENCE AND MEDICINE IF YOU SO FEEL INCLINED.
I ALWAYS LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE CLINICAL TRIALS ARE CONSENTED.
TO RUN A CLINICAL TRIAL, OBVIOUSLY THERE IS TONS OF REGULATORY HURDLES ONE HAS TO GO THROUGH TO RUN A CLINICAL TRIAL AND ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS YOU WANT.
I LOVE WHEN PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU KNOW, MYSELF, I STARTED PARTICIPATING IN CLINICAL TRIALS BACK IN GRADUATE SCHOOL OVER TEN YEARS AGO AND AT THIS POINT, I PARTICIPATED IN OVER 100 FOR VARIOUS DIFFERENT REASONS IF I GOT A REALLY GOOD FRIEND IN D.C. WITH SICKLE CELL SO I STARTED TO PARTICIPATE AND DONATE CELLS TO SICKLE CELL PATIENTS.
I DO IT BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT'S A WAY FOR ME TO GIVE BACK AND I FEEL LIKE IT ALSO HELPS ME TO BECOME MORE INFORMED ABOUT THE PROCESS AS MY VACCINES GO INTO CLINICAL TRIAL.
>> AS A KID GROWING UP IN NORTH CAROLINA, HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN BIOTECHNOLOGY?
>> OH, MAN.
REALLY, YOU KNOW, BY CHANCE.
I GOT REALLY INTERESTED IN SCIENCE BY DOING AN INTERNSHIP IN A CHEMISTRY LABORATORY IN HIGH SCHOOL.
IT IS A REALLY UNIQUE JOB TO HAVE, RIGHT?
I GET TO COME TO THIS BEAUTIFUL OFFICE EVERY DAY.
I GET TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN MY LABORATORY EXCITED ABOUT DATA AND I GET TO INFORM VACCINE BREAKTHROUGHS AND MAKE HISTORY AND TALK TO YOU AND TALK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND FOR ME, I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT ELSE I WOULD WANT TO DO AND THAT BECAME VERY CLEAR TO ME EVEN IN HIGH SCHOOL.
>> I'VE NOTICED WITH THIS REVOLUTION LIFE SCIENCE HAS BEEN LED BY WOMEN BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE OF COLOR, VERY FEW BLACK STUDENTS WHEN I GO AROUND THE BIO CHEMISTRY LABS IN THIS COUNTRY.
WHAT CAN WE DO TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BECOME PART OF THIS AND MAKE SURE THERE IS A GREATER DIVERSITY IN THE FIELD?
>> THIS QUESTION ALWAYS COMES HOW CAN WE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO MORE AND IT'S REALLY MORE SO HOW CAN WE MAKE OUR ENVIRONMENTS THE LABS, THE UNIVERSITIES AND BIOTECH COMPANIES AND HOSPITALS MORE INCLUSIVE SO THAT EVERYBODY NOT JUST BLACK STUDENTS BUT EVERYONE FEELS LIKE THIS IS A PLACE WHERE I CAN WORK.
AND FOR EVERYONE CAN BE A SCIENTIST, I WENT TO THAT LAB, THAT SUMMER IN HIGH SCHOOL AND I LEFT SAYING WOW THIS IS A PLACE YOU CAN WORK.
I WAS WELCOMED THERE.
I WAS TAUGHT.
THE WAY THAT I SPOKE AS A SOUTHERN BLACK GIRL WAS APPRECIATED AND UNDERSTOOD AND THERE ARE SMALL DETAILS ABOUT INCLUSION THAT WE HAVE TO GET BETTER AT TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO TAKE ON ANY TYPE OF JOB OF PARTICULAR SCIENCE.
>> YOU KNOW HOW VIRUSES SPREAD BETTER THAN ANYBODY.
WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE STUDIES THAT SHOW MASK WEARING MAYBE HAD NO INFLUENCE AT ALL?
LARGE SUGGESTS THAT MASKS WORN WITH LARGE COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION IMPEDE THE SPREAD AND TRANSMISSION OF THE VIRUS THAT CAUSES COVID-19.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WITH STUDIES, THE WAY YOU ANALYZE DATA, YOUR POPULATION SUBSET, THERE ARE LITTLE SMALL DETAILS THAT CAN CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE STUDY BUT AS I SAY TO ANYONE THAT HAS A QUESTION ABOUT MASKS AND HOW THEY ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT MOST LIKELY NOT COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE VIRUS, WHEN IN DOUBT WEAR A MASK.
YOU KNOW, MASKS DON'T CARE WHAT VARIANT IT IS.
THEY'RE GOING TO BLOCK IT WHETHER IT'S OMICRON OR DELTA.
IT'S A FAIL SAFE WAY IN A PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE THAT'S A PRECAUTION WHEN YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT TRANSMISSION.
>> PART OF IT WOULD INVALVE A UNIVERSAL VACCINE.
EXPLAIN HOW WE CAN CREATE ONE THAT'S UNIVERSAL AND GOES AFTER ANY CORONAVIRUS.
>> I DO HAVE WORK THAT INFORMS UNIVERSAL VACCINE DEVELOPMENT.
THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT APPROACHES.
YOU CAN TAKE THE APPROACH OF THOSE SPIKE PROTEINS GIVING PEOPLE MULTIPLE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SPIKE PROTEINS SO THAT DAY MAKE A BROADER RESPONSE.
THAT'S GENERALLY MORE OR LESS THE TYPE OF APPROACH THAT WE HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN.
BUT YOU KNOW I LIKE TO REMIND EVERYONE AS FAR AS UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGIES VACCINE TECHNOLOGIES ARE CONCERNED IT'S STILL A LONG WAYS OUT AND SO WE AREN'T PROMISING WE'LL HAVE A UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGY TOMORROW BUT WE'RE ALL WORKING ON IT.
>> HAVING GONE THROUGH THIS THREE YEARS OF COVID, TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO IMPROVE EITHER OUR BIO MEDICAL RESEARCH SYSTEM OR EVEN OUR HEALTH SYSTEMS IN AMERICA.
>> SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I LEARNED IS THAT WE HAVE ALL OF THE SMALL TOOLS EMBEDDED IN OUR SYSTEM ALREADY.
THE ONE GOOD THING ABOUT THIS PANDEMIC IS WE HAD NO OPTION BUT FOR EACH OF THE SUBSETS TO COME TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER SO, YOU KNOW, YOU SAW THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH WORKING WITH THE CDC AND SAW JUST, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS COMING TOGETHER.
YOU SAW DOCTORS WORKING WITH SCIENTISTS AND ALL THESE LITTLE PIECES, ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE A VERY CONCERTED AND COLLABORATIVE EFFORT IN ORDER TO GET THE JOB DONE FROM A TO Z.
>> DOCTOR, THANK DOWN SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.