♪♪ >> CATHY: PUBLIC SAFETY IS A GROWING CONCERN FOR COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE STATE, INCLUDING MINNEAPOLIS.
VIOLENT CRIME RATES IN THAT CITY DECLINED LAST YEAR BUT RATES ARE STILL ABOVE THE NORM.
COMMUNITY MEMBERS ARE PUSHING FOR CHANGES AND ALTERNATIVE EFFORTS TO SUPPORT PUBLIC SAFETY.
OF COURSE, WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY AND CURRENT EFFORTS TO CHANGE POLICING WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF POLICING.
HERE WITH EXPERTISE ON THAT SUBJECT, CO-FOUNDERS OF THE OVER-POLICED AND UNDER-PROTECTED PROJECT.
YOHURU WILLIAMS IS A HISTORIAN AND DIRECTOR OF THE RACIAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ST. THOMAS.
MICHAEL LANSING HEADS UP THE HISTORY DEPARTMENT AT AUGSBURG UNIVERSITY.
PROFESSOR WILLIAMS, WE'RE GOING TO SHOW A PHOTOGRAPH THAT'S REALLY DISTURBING, IT'S ON YOUR WEBSITE.
I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS PHOTO TAKEN IN 1971 AND WHY YOU HAVE IT ON YOUR WEBSITE?
>> WELL, IT'S APRIL OF 1971, IT'S THE CASE OF A YOUNG MAN BY THE NAME OF RANDY SAMPLE WHO IS AT 12 YEARS OLD DRAGGED ACROSS THE STREET BY THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE AND IT BECOMES A TOUCHSTONE BECAUSE IT APPEARS IN NEWSWEEK PLAYING ZENE AND IT RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICING HERE IN THE TWIN CITIES AND ABOUT BRUTALITY, SPECIFICALLY AGAINST AFRICAN AMERICANS, BLACK PEOPLE, SO A GOOD INDICATION OF WHAT E SEE AS THESE LONGSTANDING THEMES N POLICING IN MINNEAPOLIS, IN THE TWIN CITIES AS A WHOLE, AROUND POLICE BRUTALITY.
IT'S ONE OF THESE MOMENTS WHERE THE COMMUNITIES COMES TOGETHER AND IS QUESTIONING WHY THE POLICE ARE TREATING THIS YOUNG MAN IN THIS WAY.
THERE IS AN ATTEMPT TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY, ULTIMATELY THOSE EFFORTS FAIL AND WHAT PEOPLE ARE LEFT WITH ARE THE MEMORY, AGAIN, OF THIS YOUNG PERSON BRUTALIZED AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY.
>> Cathy: WASN'T MAYOR CHARLIE TEN INVESTIGATION THE MAYOR AT THE POINT AND HE WAS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER?
>> THAT'S PARTS OF THE STUDY.
>> I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF POLICE UNION WAS SERVING AS MAYOR, STARTING A SECOND ERM WHEN THIS INCIDENTS TOOK PLACE.
THAT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE, IN FACT, IN THE OLD EAK MAYOR SYSTEM IN MINNEAPOLIS, OF COURSE THE MAYOR WAS IN CHARGE OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND SO THERE WAS A GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION IN 1971 OF OVER 30 INSTANCES OF POTENTIAL POLICE BRUTALITY TARGETING MINIORITIES, BLACK PEOPLE AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN MINNEAPOLIS.
NO OFFICERS WERE EVER PROSECUTED OR DISCIPLINED FOR ANY OF THOSE INCIDENTS, THE GRAND JURY DECIDED THAT IT WAS NOT ANYTHING WORTH PURSUING.
IN THE MEANTIME, RANDY SAMPLES' FAMILY PURSUED CLAIMS AGAINST THE THREE PATROL OFFICERS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THE INCIDENT.
THAT CASE KIND OF WAS DRAWN OUT BY 1974, THE DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS AT THE STATE LEVEL INTERVENED AND SUGGESTED THAT THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT SHOULD IN FACT PAY SAMPLES $100, SENDS A LETTER OF APOLING AND THE MDP -- MPD SHOULD CHANGE ITS POLICIES.
THEY REFUSED AND EVENTUALLY A JUDGE OVERTURNED THE STATE'S RULING.
ERIC THERE IS A WELL-TRAFFICKED OPINION THAT SAYS THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CULTURE IS A THUMPER CULTURE.
IS THAT A FAIR LABEL AND IF SO, HOW DID IT DEVELOP?
>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY A FAIR LABEL AND PART OF THE STORIES WE WANT TO CAPTURE IN THIS PROJECT AND WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW THAT HAPPENED.
WE THINK ABOUT THAT 1971 MOMENT, STENVEG.
MOST PEOPLE THINK ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE FRANK RISSO IN PHILADELPHIA AS KIND OF THE TYPICAL IMAGE OF THE BRUTAL POLICE CHIEF OR ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.
ACTUALLY, RISSO WAS NOT IN OFFICE WHEN STENVIG IS TAKING OFFICE, MINNEAPOLIS IS THE MODEL FOR WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE AND IT'S LET ME BE CLEAR TAKE THE HANDS OFF THE POLICE, SO THAT THUMPER MENTALITY HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF NO ACCOUNTABILITY AND WHAT YOU SEE IS PEOPLE GRAVITATING TOWARD THE DEPARTMENTS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY WON'T BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ACTS OF SCRIM NATURAL AGAINST BLACK ADDS PEOPLE OF COLOR.
1975 WERE ON THE WEBSITE OUR SHORT FROM 1975 WHICH IS WE DID IN ONJUNCTION WITH TPT, A PHENOMENAL PARTNER BUT WE HAVE ARTHUR CUNNINGHAM, THE HEALED OF THE NAACP IN 1974 SAYING WE BELIEVE THAT THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE HAVE DECLARED WAR ON BLACKS AND INDIANS.
THAT'S SPEAKING TO THAT THUMPER MEN AT THAT TIME THAT WHEN WE GET INTO IT IS '0s AN '90ED, YOU'RE STILL SEEING MANIFEST IN EMPLOYS BEHAVIOR.
>> Cathy: THIS SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT HISTORY PROJECT AND I'M IN LOVE WITH HISTORY.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
>> WE AS HIS ATTORNEYS TAKE OUR EXPERTISE -- WE AS HISTORIANS TAKE OUR WORK AND TAKE IT TO CONVERSATIONS.
THAT'S WHAT POLICE AND UNPROTECTED MSP IS REALLY ALL ABOUT.
WE'RE INTERESTED IN RECOVERING, COLLECTING AND SHARING STORIES OF UNJUST POLICING AS WELL AS FORMS OF COMMUNITY RESISTANCE TO UNJUST POLICING, WITH THE HOPE THAT IT MAKES THIS CONTRIBUTION TO THE VERY IMPORTANT COMMUNITY CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY.
I THINK THAT, IN FACT, YOU CAN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU'VE BEEN AND I THINK THAT RECOVERY IS SO IMPORTANT AND THE SHALE IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT.
>> Eric: DOES THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER GIVE THIS OME CURRENCY THAT IT'S RECENT HISTORY BUT STILL HISTORY AND IS IT KIND OF AN INFLECTION POINT TO USE THIS KIND OF STUFF TO IMPROVE THINGS GOING FORWARD --- >> ABSOLUTELY, AND WE SAW THAT LAST YEAR WITH THE HUMAN RIGHTS REPORT WHICH ONLY WENT BACK TEN YEARS AND WE THOUGHT THAT WAS A MISTAKE.
WE'RE FOND OF SAYING THAT HISTORY DOESN'T REPEAT ITSELF, IT ECHOS SO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS NOTHING LIKE THE FLOYD MURDER, THE INABILITY TO HOLD OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE ARE THE I CAN COULDS OF THE PAST.
IF WE GO BACK TO RECOVER THAT HISTORY, WE HAVE A BASIS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT REAL CHANGE WOULD LOOK LIKE, NOT JUST PROFESSIONALIZATION BUT ACTUAL REFORM AND A MOVE FROM POLICING TO PUBLIC SAFETY.
>> Eric: SO THE WORK ROD OF THIS WILL CONTRIBUTE HOW TO THE OVERALL DISCUSSION OF SOLUTIONS?
>> WELL, I THINK OUR PLAN IS TO DO ANY NUMBER OF THINGS.
WE HOPE TO CONTINUE TO DO WORK IN THE DOCUMENTARY FORMAT WITH THE COLLEAGUES HERE AT TPT.
WE HOPE TO DO SOME PUBLIC-FACING EVENTS.
WE'RE INTERESTED ALSO IN GATHERING COMMUNITY STORIES.
LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE LOTS OF KNOWLEDGE IN OUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY ELDERS BUT LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE, TOO, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO CAPTURE THOSE PUBLIC SAFETY STORIES.
WE'RE ALSO ENGAGED IN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.
WHICH ACTUALLY STARTED THIS PAST SUMMER AND HEN FINALLY WE'RE BUILDING AN ARCHIVE WHICH WE'LL BE DEPOSITING INTO A LOCAL CONSTITUTION.
SO INSTITUTION.
SO I THINK THESE ARE ALL VERY ACCESSIBLE PUBLIC PRODUCTS THAT WE HOPE ILL ENRICH THE CONVERSATION AND THE DEBATES THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND THE QUESTION OF POLICING IN THE TWIN CITIES.
>> WE ARE ABLE TO PROVIDE SOME CONTEXT TO ORGANIZATIONS LIKE MINNESOTA JUSTICE RESOURCE CENTER AROUND THINGS LIKE THE P.O.S.T.
BOARD, SO RECOVERING THAT HISTORY AND TALKING ABOUT HOW THAT ORGANIZATION CAME TO BE, WHAT THOSE VARIOUS MOMENTS, '67 AT ITS INCEPTION, '77, OTHER EFFORTS TO REUP, THE SAME TYPE OF BEHAVIOR WE'RE EEING NOW.
>> Eric: WILL RETIRED OFFICERS, MAYBE NOT CURRENT OFFICERS BUILT RETIRED OFFICERS GET A CHANCE TO WEIGH?
WILL YOU DO SOME OUTREACH TO GET THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY?
>> WE LAUNCHED THE HISTORY PROJECT BY TALKING TO OFFICERS THAT SERVED ON THE MINNEAPOLIS FORCE IN THE 18960s.
>> Eric: WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM THEM?
>> WE HEARD THAT THE DEPARTMENT WAS A PLACE THEY WERE INTERESTED IN REFORMING, THEY WERE INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THAT OFFICERS WHO SERVED WERE ABLE TO PURSUE COLLEGE CREDIT, TO GET CREDIT FOR THAT WITHIN THE DEPARTMENTS AT PROPER MOTION TIME AND TO THINK MORE BROADLY ABOUT PUBLIC RELATIONS.
BOTH OF THEM WERE OUT OF THE DEPARTMENT BY THE END OF 1970 WHICH I ALSO THINK IS REALLY TELLING.
>> Cathy: SO WHAT WAS STOPPING THEM, WHAT WAS STOPPING THOSE REFORM EFFORTS?
>> WELL, IT WAS OTHER OFFICERS.
WHAT WE TODAY OFTEN REFER TO ACCORDING TO THESE FOLKS, IT WAS WHAT WE THINK OF AS THE CULTURE OF POLICING.
ALSO, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT ONE OF THOSE OFFICE ARERS TOLD US A STORY THAT INVOLVED MAYOR CHARLES STENVIG, AGAIN THAT NAME COMES UP AS A REALLY IMPORTANT PLAYER.
>> Cathy: THIS FEELS REALLY FRESH.
HAVE OTHER CITIES DONE SOMETHING SIMILAR?
THIS IS A GLOBAL PROJECT HERE, IT'S A REALLY LARGE FAR-REACHING PROJECT.
>> THERE'S CERTAINLY BEEN OTHER PROJECTS IN OTHER CITIES.
WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT ABOUT THE STORY HERE IS THAT MINNEAPOLIS FOUND ITSELF IN THE EPICENTER OF THIS CONVERSATION AND SO WE NEEDED TO RECOVER THAT HISTORY TO HELP CONTEXTUALIZE THIS MOMENT BUT AT THE SAME TIME TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH OUR COLLEAGUES IN OTHER CITIES WHO ARE DOING SIMILAR WORK.
ARE THERE THEMES THAT WE CAN PICK UP, CAN CHALLENGES THAT WE CAN PICK UP, ECHOS THAT WE CAN PICK UP ACROSS THIS WORK TO SAY, THIS IS REALLY WHAT WE NEED IS TO DO TO REIMAGINE PUBLIC SAFETY.
THE IDEA OF REFORM IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH SO WE HAVE TO BE PART OF PROVIDING A HISTORICAL RECOVERY TO INFORM THE WORK OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE POLICY CHANGE, CHANGING THE POLICIES, PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES THAT HAVE GOTTEN US HERE.
>> Eric: WHAT DOES MEMPHIS ADDS TO THE DISCUSSION?
>> MEMPHIS, TO ME, IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE AND A LONG HISTORY OF EXAMPLES NATIONALLY AND LOCALLY OF POLICE BRUTALITY, MISCONDUCT AND MISTREATMENT AND IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE ARE SYSTEMIC ISSUES, AND SOME OF THOSE ARE NATIONAL ISSUES.
YOU CAN FIND THEM IN DEPARTMENTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND RURAL PLACE, AS WELL AS IN URBAN PLACES, IN SUBURBAN DEPARTMENTS.
BUT IT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT AT THE SAME TIME EVERY PARTICULAR CITY HAS ITS OWN TRAJECTORY, HAS ITS OWN KIND OF STRUCTURE, ITS OWN POLITICS, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WHAT WE DO AS HISTORIANS IS WE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT SCHOLARS ARE SAYING AROUND THE COUNTRY AND THEN LISTENING TO LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND TRYING TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT TELLS US ABOUT THESE PARTICULAR STORIES IN THE TWIN CITIES.
>> Eric: CAN YOU CHANGE CULTURE?
ANYWHERE, MUCH LESS A POLICE DEPARTMENT?
>> I THINK OUR CURRENT CHIEF IN MINNEAPOLIS AND OBVIOUSLY Dr. ALEXANDER AND BRIAN O'HARE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.
WE GO BACK TO THE 18980s, THIS IS WHAT TONY BOUZA WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH, WE CAN TALK ABOUT OTHER CHIEFS, JENSEN IN 1975 AND WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO.
IT'S DIFFICULT TO CHANGE CULTURE, IT IS POSSIBLE AND I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN ARE VARIOUS MOMENTS WHERE THERE WAS EFFORT TOWARDS MAKING REAL CHANGE BUT IT DISSIPATES GENERALLY IN CALLS FOR GREATER, YOU KNOW, LET'S TAKE THE HANDCUFFS OFF THE POLICE, CRIME IS GOING UP SO PEOPLE AREN'T CREATIVE IN THINKING ABOUT IF WE WANT REAL CHANGE, WE HAVE TO INVEST IN THAT CHANGE.
>> Eric: THIS IS REALLY A FASCINATING TOPIC.
WHERE CAN WE GET THE WEBSITE TO GET A LOOK AT YOUR STUFF?
>> OVERPOLICEED MSP.ORG.
>> Eric: ALL RIGHT.
GOOD LUCK WITH THE RES